Cessna 310 and Flight1 anti-piracy

[Guest DreamFleet]

Believe it or not, I am one of the folks who developed the 310, and even I have to deal with this system.That's right, once we go "gold" on the product, I deal with it the same way the customer does, and I deal with it even after the release, just like the customer does. Even I do not use some "special" version.Ultimately, we make this system as user friendly as possible, and BEND OVER BACKWARDS to help the customer when problems may arise.Do not confuse the Flight 1 wrapper system with ANY other system out there.Why? We, the developers, deal with it also!You can be certain that this system had better perform well for the customer!While we WILL fight piracy, we WILL also give the customer the benefit of the doubt, even if it means we lose product to pirates.My hat goes off to Flight One's Steve Halpern, who has created a convenient, user friendly system, and backs it up with support to the customer that, IMHO, is second to none.You can take that to the "bank".Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...RUM_LOUF_A2.jpg

[yellow5 0]

Why do individuals think that payware designers are forming some sort of conspericy. It is against the laws ( I assume international included) to take peoples money and offer nothing in return. I have purchased the Cessna 310 and I am very impressed and enjoying the heck out of it. I cannot wait to use it in FS2004! Anyway, payware designers just like freeware, have every right to protect their work. I am a freelance artist myself, and any art work I create remains mine and will not be stolen from me. I do the work I am paid to do and to keep good client relations I may have to even go out of my way. I have found very good experiences with the payware I have purchased. You should read all documentation, but it is there to protect you and the designer.There is my 10 cents worth....

[gosta 0]

Hi Lou,>That's right, once we go "gold" on the product, I deal with it the same way the customer does, and I deal with it even after the release, just like the customer does. Even I do not use some "special" version.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

I purchased the Flight1 Cessna 421C (was very happy with everything) and was about to purchase the new Cessna 310 this morning but am a bit concerned over the use of this new anti-p system they have in use (I do not blame them a bit for protecting their product) My concern stems from reading messages in this forum regarding other developers attempts to prevent piracy. My question is this:- I have a number of PC's set up with WideView and install the same Aircraft on all 7 PC's plus I am forever upgrading my hardware and building new and better PC's - (since retiring I have the time to play more) this would involve reinstalling the Cessna 310 many times. I think I will fall foul of the Flight1 regulations regarding the continued reinstallation of their product - I say their product as it appears I will never own it.This is in no way knocking Flight1 as I have the highest respect for their products - it's just a concern over the way I will use it and I guess it's similar to the existing regulations regarding the MS operating systems!

[Guest Steve Small]

>I think you are not reading the way it works. You do not need>to revalidate the software after it is installed. The system>is really quite simple...This is exactly the same as the FSD system.>You can install as many times as you like. After a while, you>will need to revalidate your key (if you have reinstalled many>times) and this is done through an automated system and it is>all very easy.We haven't automated that part, but again, it is exactly the same as what FSD does.>We also understand that users have different ISP's, so we>can't block a key just because of a different IP address. A>key may be blocked if it is obvious that a key was accessed in>California, Australia, and Germany, when the purchase was made>in Florida. We track that carefully, and of course can then>take needed action.Same approach as FSD. >What hurts us the most is the casual piracy that prevents real>purchases from happening, and the resources that both the>casual and hardcore pirate costs us when someone shares their>key or other files. We have to PAY for the bandwidth for the>downloads of the main files or updates (check bandwidth prices>these days). This is what we said to you for over a year, before we were forced to develop our own solution but you would not listen. We appealed to you to tighten the delivery system up, but you consistently ignored us. You forced us to develop our own which we implemented three months ago. Curiously, your 'new' system is very much like what we independently developed and implemented months ago. >So pirates really do not understand that not only>are they getting the product without paying for it, but we are>having to pay for their ability to steal. Kind of like the>bank providing the getaway car for the robbery. The bank had>to PAY for the car.Pirates understand this all too clearly. Steve ... the rest of your post is almost word for word what we were saying to you going back to 2001. In fact, your last two sentences came almost verbatim from a letter I wrote to you and Jim Rhoads before last Christmas......Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[Guest Tumbleweed]

I can't understand what all the fuss is about. I totally agree with the precautions taken by the payware companies. If this was my living, I'd do the same thing.I have become an avid purchaser of payware from Captain Sim, Dreamfleet and PSS products for the past year, and have never been let down once. No technical difficulaties, no install issues and no 're-install' problems.Long live QUALITY payware!Safe flyingEric

[Guest Steve Small]

FYI ... just to balance the view.-----Original Message-----From: snip[mailto:xxxx@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, 12 July 2003 4:07 PMTo: 'Steve Small'Subject: RE: Thank you for your orderSteve,OK on the work on progress, just asking :-) The install and (FS2004) migration process went just fine, nothing bothersome at all: two clicks and two boxes to fill, not a problem *at all*...You have a great week-end!Best Regardsxxxxx-----Original Message-----From: Steve Small [mailto:steve.small@bigpond.com] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:48 PMTo: 'xx'Subject: RE: Thank you for your orderHi xxxx,Thanks ... glad to hear it worked OK into FS2004.Just for my info ... can I ask if you did find the new installer and the rego process bothersome or of some sort of a concern ? We have had to tighten up delivery to prevent piracy and have taken some heat as a result of the inability to redistribute files. The overwhelming feedback we get is that people are not fussed, but I'd like to get as broad range of views as possible as a reality check ... Your thoughts would be very welcome.Best wishes,Steve.....Steve Smallwww.fsd-international.com-----Original Message-----From: [mailto:xxxx@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, 12 July 2003 3:33 PMTo: 'Steve Small'Subject: RE: Thank you for your orderHi Steve,Migration went just fine, including the repaints. Is there anything you'd like me to look for? Not about how she flies, I know more about my exercise bike dynamics ;-) Is the VC supposed to be clickable yet?Best Regardsxxxxx.....Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[gosta 0]

Hi both Steves :),have you ever considered the legal implications of such protective technology? If only one disgruntled customer in a non-US country took a developer who implemented such technology to court, the whole concept would come crashing down like a house of cards, as it infringes consumer protection, privacy and copyright laws. So you think, this guy on the Avsim forums claims to know better than the Microsoft lawyers, when MS required product activation for XP all along? Not so, I assume their lawyers had the same level of education as me, and have acted the same way as I would have. Do you really think XP product activation is a requirement outside the US? Think again. While MS may make it look that way (and why wouldn't they - 99% of the customers fall for it), in a lot of countries (including most of Europe) it is against the law, and they will supply anyone who is persistent enough with a key that doesn't require activation ('Persistent' means being able to quote the relevant piece of legislation/precedent).So, where does that leave software developers, who are obviously in a dire need to combat rampant piracy? A possible answer that is consistent with the Berne Convention on copyright (ratified by a majority of countries) would be to introduce 'User Binding', rather than 'Machine Binding'. The implementation of such a scheme would require the cooperation of hardware manufacturers, and the setting of an international standard, by which every customer upon application, or purchase of a computer would be given a 'Computer Owner's ID', which would never change and is entered into the BIOS. It is valid for life (like a national insurance number) and can be used on any computer. Any software licence key would be dependent on the Owner's ID, i.e. if the BIOS shows a different ID, I can't run the software - so most casual pirates are out of luck, unless they want to change their whole computer, OS and all, to the pirated ID (requiring ID-dependent keys for every piece of software). The advantage of such a system is, that it doesn't conflict with existing laws, and thus would be easily enforceable world-wide, unlike present schemes (Turbo Tax wasn't an attractive software title outside the US, was it? - yet it still generated a lot of aggravation).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

After reading all these messages throughly I decided to d/l the Cessna 310 from Flight1 with the intention of buying until I read the part of the install warning "If you plan to move this software after purchase to a computer that has no Internet access please do not purchase this software now, and contact your software's vendor for other purchasing options"My only PC that has dsl internet connection is my main host PC with WideView setup to 6 other PC's. The Pipex ISP I use does not allow use of my other PC's to link from the main PC which means I will not be able to use the Flight1 Cessna software on any of my other PC's without an internet connection!I did return to the Flight1 web site but cannot find any reference to my particular problem so it looks like the Pirates win again and what used to be a simple matter of d/l a new Aircraft purchase and flying it has become a thing of the past.

[Guest metamarty]

>So, where does that leave software developers, who are>obviously in a dire need to combat rampant piracy? A possible>answer that is consistent with the Berne Convention on>copyright (ratified by a majority of countries) would be to>introduce 'User Binding', rather than 'Machine Binding'. The>implementation of such a scheme would require the cooperation>of hardware manufacturers, and the setting of an international>standard, by which every customer upon application, or>purchase of a computer would be given a 'Computer Owner's ID',>which would never change and is entered into the BIOS. It is>valid for life (like a national insurance number) and can be>used on any computer. Any software licence key would be>dependent on the Owner's ID, i.e. if the BIOS shows a>different ID, I can't run the software - so most casual>pirates are out of luck, unless they want to change their>whole computer, OS and all, to the pirated ID (requiring>ID-dependent keys for every piece of software). Do you understand that such a thing would be equivalent to wearing a homing beacon around your neck each time you get out of your house? These technologies have popped up now and then (like Pentium CPU ID's), and thankfully they were crushed each time. I wouldn't even begin to look at the amount of personal information the marketing folks (spam people and telemarketers) would automatically gather. Soon there would be a java applet in each page that reads your key and sends it to gator or Microsoft or who knows. Personal information has always been abused and will be in the future. This is the exact reason why so many battles are fought against Windows activation codes and MS Passport.>>Cheers,>>Gosta.Bye,Marty

[boshar 6]

Hello Steve,The way I read the Flight One protection it is not using machine binding and it doesn't prevent you to instal the add-on on another test machine. One or 2 of those things are by default prevented by your protection software.If I am correct I can have a couple of windows reinstalls after which I can install the add-on without contacting Flight One. Seems a bit more convenient for someone like me.

[gosta 0]

Hi Marty,my proposal would not require the disclosure of any personal information, otherwise it would be in breach of various privacy laws.As i envision it, it would simply be an anonymous allocation of numbers - i.e you walk into a computer store to buy a new computer, and the clerk will ask you if you have an Owner's ID. If not, he'll just pull one out from under the desk, no need to ask for any details. This will be given to you to enter into the BIOS of your new computer and will be the basis from which all your software keys will be generated - thereby ensuring (to a reasonable extent), that all the software is used by one person. You could use the same ID to enter into the BIOS of your bedroom and bathroom computers, but it would ensure that only consistent software is used on any single computer. Unlike the schemes that are in place nowadays, this would not require any personal information to be conveyed to anyone - you just get a card with your owner's number on it, which will be the basis upon which all software keys for your software will be generated. Of course, it will be your responsibility to keep a record of your number, otherwise all your software will be lost in case of an upgrade...Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest metamarty]

Hi!Yep, this is exactly how CPU id's work. There's nothing but a single number. The problem is, this single number is all you need to tie information together. For example: site 1 know that user ID 123 searches for Ford cars and has purchased one lately. Site 2 knows that user ID 123 regularly shops at amazon.com. Site 3 hosts a shady spyware application that recently discovered the name and email address of user ID 123. The danger is not in all these sites knowing their little piece of information, but the existence of a key that binds them together. Sooner or later, the 3 sites join their information and now come up with a totale profile of user ID 123, including email addresses and purchase behaviour.Currently, sites work with unique cookies. These are site specific, so they can not be combined. A user ID is all they need to bind every customer database together without you even knowing anything about it. Given the huge amount of time and money businesses already spend on spying (like gator and other spyware), just imagine what would happen if they are handed a tool like a user ID.Hope that clarifies the dangers of systems like this,Marty

[Guest bigun]

The anti-piracy methods used by the Flight1 wrapper are, as I stated above, no problem. The big difference, in my opinion, on the way it is handled versus some "other" schemes is that it is not tied to ip addresses. I don't have a clue how all this works but I know from experience that Flight1/DF wrappers don't cause a problem for legal re-installs while those that bind to an ip address do!George Stoddard

[gosta 0]

Hi Marty,having lived in Canada for the past two years, I understand that terms like 'consumer protection' and 'customer service' are considered swear words on this continent (yes, I include the US - as far as the bad guys go, Canada fares only slightly better...). I call it the '#### you off, rip you off' society. However, in the rest of the world there are powerful laws which prevent the harvesting of personal data as you described. And it is those people who would benefit from an anonymous activation technology as I envisioned, but probably not the minority of consumers residing in North America. And that level of consumer protection has been achieved without making changes to existing laws - for example, if you send unwanted spam to someone in Germany, you could end up in prison, but if you do the same in the States, the maximum penalty would be a fine (and even that depends on the State).So, basically, my proposed system would require no internet connection, as it is hardware-specific, the ID can be kept secret (the technology to generate random keys is in place, restrictions on using buying habit information as well), but it would require an international convention to be signed and ratified by all civilised nations (to ensure the law can be enforced in North America).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg