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Jeff Nielsen

Cessna 310 and Flight1 anti-piracy

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The following comes from Flight1's web site:* An additional level of security relies on your e-mail address. Your e-mail address is critical in that it acts as the official point of contact for you to receive information, and maintain your Key status. This is because unlike previous versions of the wrapper, the key will automatically become disabled after a certain amount of accesses. But this is no big deal as long as your e-mail address is valid, because you can reactivate your disabled key automatically via a link we will send to your e-mail account (after you use the automated key re-activation link at flight1.com) *Do I read this correctly - that every so often I will be required to revalidate the software before I can carry on flying the a/c? And what happens if I change my e-mail address, as I have done recently, I wonder?I'm totally against software piracy but if I do read this correctly then I think anti-piracy efforts are going too far and I certainly won't be buying from Flight1 any more. Pity, because I was really looking forward to the Cessna 152 this weekend.Hopefully, someone will prove that I have got the whole thing wrong.David

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Hi David,I should hope that by 'access' they mean installing the software, rather than running it. In any case, Flight1 is very likely to release a CD version soon, and from my experience, they seem to have a very good distribution network - their add-ons are very easy to find in local shops here in Vancouver. Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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It means installing it...One access = one install

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I am sure that things like this have been taken into consideration. An email to Flight1 explaining your changing your ISP and thus your email address will meet with support and change of any details they have for your purchase. To enquire further, Flight1 have their own forums where a question like this would be answered definitively.Best RgdsAidihttp://www.vfr-flightcenter.com/avsim_sig.jpg

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IIRC once when I had a problem with a "key" (with one of the very first products I purchased from F1) all they asked me for was my full name and the last four numbers of the CC I used to purchase it with, next thing I knew I had a new key.

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David,I think you are not reading the way it works. You do not need to revalidate the software after it is installed. The system is really quite simple...You can install as many times as you like. After a while, you will need to revalidate your key (if you have reinstalled many times) and this is done through an automated system and it is all very easy.We also understand that users have different ISP's, so we can't block a key just because of a different IP address. A key may be blocked if it is obvious that a key was accessed in California, Australia, and Germany, when the purchase was made in Florida. We track that carefully, and of course can then take needed action.The reality is that we can spend months trying to win the piracy battle, but then that is months not developing products. We could make the system tougher, but that is really not worth it at this time. Theives will find ways to steal no matter what.What hurts us the most is the casual piracy that prevents real purchases from happening, and the resources that both the casual and hardcore pirate costs us when someone shares their key or other files. We have to PAY for the bandwidth for the downloads of the main files or updates (check bandwidth prices these days). So pirates really do not understand that not only are they getting the product without paying for it, but we are having to pay for their ability to steal. Kind of like the bank providing the getaway car for the robbery. The bank had to PAY for the car.So, we increased our security a little, but do not disrespect the honest customer to the point of wanting to drag them into the "mess". We just hope that enough customers remain honest so it does not make our job harder, thus forcing tougher restrictions.So try the system, and I will believe you will find it to be quite simple and easy to use.Thanks!

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Yeah do not worry about Flight1's system at all - it's great, I've bought almost everything they've put out and have had no problems whatsoever.Ryan

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The sad thing about this is that as usual, the legitimate end user that buys the software is the one who ends up being inconvenienced. The people who pirate software will easily find a way to disable this "feature", and in the long run it will be the "file sharers" who will have less of a hassle using the add-ons.Tim13

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>The sad thing about this is that as usual, the legitimate end>user that buys the software is the one who ends up being>inconvenienced.It took me 6 minutes to download the product and, maybe 2 minutes to install, pay for and register it, maybe 2 more minutes and I was on my way out of Meigs in my brand new 310.

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Yep i read it as well... and it really dosent concern me at all (they have to protect there investment in time and work).As for email address they would have in place a system for changeing your address .. myself i use Yahoo as it my only portable address i change ISP's a lot :)

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>The sad thing about this is that as usual, the legitimate end>user that buys the software is the one who ends up being>inconvenienced. The people who pirate software will easily>find a way to disable this "feature", and in the long run it>will be the "file sharers" who will have less of a hassle>using the add-ons.>>Tim13What are you talking about? The Flight1 policy is simple and convienent. Is it so hard to send Flight1 an email stating that you are changing your email address?

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Absolutely right! The Flight1 wrapper is no problem at all. Have a "bunch" of Flight1 stuff and never a problem with re-install. Other developers could take lessons on anti-piracy schemes from Flight1 and DF.George Stoddard

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To me, this system sounds far more palatable than various other Norman Bates inspired systems that were under intense discussion last week.

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Download: 2 hoursInstall: 2 minutesReinstall (if required): 2 minutes:)

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Believe it or not, I am one of the folks who developed the 310, and even I have to deal with this system.That's right, once we go "gold" on the product, I deal with it the same way the customer does, and I deal with it even after the release, just like the customer does. Even I do not use some "special" version.Ultimately, we make this system as user friendly as possible, and BEND OVER BACKWARDS to help the customer when problems may arise.Do not confuse the Flight 1 wrapper system with ANY other system out there.Why? We, the developers, deal with it also!You can be certain that this system had better perform well for the customer!While we WILL fight piracy, we WILL also give the customer the benefit of the doubt, even if it means we lose product to pirates.My hat goes off to Flight One's Steve Halpern, who has created a convenient, user friendly system, and backs it up with support to the customer that, IMHO, is second to none.You can take that to the "bank".Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...RUM_LOUF_A2.jpg

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Why do individuals think that payware designers are forming some sort of conspericy. It is against the laws ( I assume international included) to take peoples money and offer nothing in return. I have purchased the Cessna 310 and I am very impressed and enjoying the heck out of it. I cannot wait to use it in FS2004! Anyway, payware designers just like freeware, have every right to protect their work. I am a freelance artist myself, and any art work I create remains mine and will not be stolen from me. I do the work I am paid to do and to keep good client relations I may have to even go out of my way. I have found very good experiences with the payware I have purchased. You should read all documentation, but it is there to protect you and the designer.There is my 10 cents worth....

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Hi Lou,>That's right, once we go "gold" on the product, I deal with it the same way the customer does, and I deal with it even after the release, just like the customer does. Even I do not use some "special" version.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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I purchased the Flight1 Cessna 421C (was very happy with everything) and was about to purchase the new Cessna 310 this morning but am a bit concerned over the use of this new anti-p system they have in use (I do not blame them a bit for protecting their product) My concern stems from reading messages in this forum regarding other developers attempts to prevent piracy. My question is this:- I have a number of PC's set up with WideView and install the same Aircraft on all 7 PC's plus I am forever upgrading my hardware and building new and better PC's - (since retiring I have the time to play more) this would involve reinstalling the Cessna 310 many times. I think I will fall foul of the Flight1 regulations regarding the continued reinstallation of their product - I say their product as it appears I will never own it.This is in no way knocking Flight1 as I have the highest respect for their products - it's just a concern over the way I will use it and I guess it's similar to the existing regulations regarding the MS operating systems!

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>I think you are not reading the way it works. You do not need>to revalidate the software after it is installed. The system>is really quite simple...This is exactly the same as the FSD system.>You can install as many times as you like. After a while, you>will need to revalidate your key (if you have reinstalled many>times) and this is done through an automated system and it is>all very easy.We haven't automated that part, but again, it is exactly the same as what FSD does.>We also understand that users have different ISP's, so we>can't block a key just because of a different IP address. A>key may be blocked if it is obvious that a key was accessed in>California, Australia, and Germany, when the purchase was made>in Florida. We track that carefully, and of course can then>take needed action.Same approach as FSD. >What hurts us the most is the casual piracy that prevents real>purchases from happening, and the resources that both the>casual and hardcore pirate costs us when someone shares their>key or other files. We have to PAY for the bandwidth for the>downloads of the main files or updates (check bandwidth prices>these days). This is what we said to you for over a year, before we were forced to develop our own solution but you would not listen. We appealed to you to tighten the delivery system up, but you consistently ignored us. You forced us to develop our own which we implemented three months ago. Curiously, your 'new' system is very much like what we independently developed and implemented months ago. >So pirates really do not understand that not only>are they getting the product without paying for it, but we are>having to pay for their ability to steal. Kind of like the>bank providing the getaway car for the robbery. The bank had>to PAY for the car.Pirates understand this all too clearly. Steve ... the rest of your post is almost word for word what we were saying to you going back to 2001. In fact, your last two sentences came almost verbatim from a letter I wrote to you and Jim Rhoads before last Christmas......Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

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I can't understand what all the fuss is about. I totally agree with the precautions taken by the payware companies. If this was my living, I'd do the same thing.I have become an avid purchaser of payware from Captain Sim, Dreamfleet and PSS products for the past year, and have never been let down once. No technical difficulaties, no install issues and no 're-install' problems.Long live QUALITY payware!Safe flyingEric

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FYI ... just to balance the view.-----Original Message-----From: snip[mailto:xxxx@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, 12 July 2003 4:07 PMTo: 'Steve Small'Subject: RE: Thank you for your orderSteve,OK on the work on progress, just asking :-) The install and (FS2004) migration process went just fine, nothing bothersome at all: two clicks and two boxes to fill, not a problem *at all*...You have a great week-end!Best Regardsxxxxx-----Original Message-----From: Steve Small [mailto:steve.small@bigpond.com] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:48 PMTo: 'xx'Subject: RE: Thank you for your orderHi xxxx,Thanks ... glad to hear it worked OK into FS2004.Just for my info ... can I ask if you did find the new installer and the rego process bothersome or of some sort of a concern ? We have had to tighten up delivery to prevent piracy and have taken some heat as a result of the inability to redistribute files. The overwhelming feedback we get is that people are not fussed, but I'd like to get as broad range of views as possible as a reality check ... Your thoughts would be very welcome.Best wishes,Steve.....Steve Smallwww.fsd-international.com-----Original Message-----From: [mailto:xxxx@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, 12 July 2003 3:33 PMTo: 'Steve Small'Subject: RE: Thank you for your orderHi Steve,Migration went just fine, including the repaints. Is there anything you'd like me to look for? Not about how she flies, I know more about my exercise bike dynamics ;-) Is the VC supposed to be clickable yet?Best Regardsxxxxx.....Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

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Hi both Steves :),have you ever considered the legal implications of such protective technology? If only one disgruntled customer in a non-US country took a developer who implemented such technology to court, the whole concept would come crashing down like a house of cards, as it infringes consumer protection, privacy and copyright laws. So you think, this guy on the Avsim forums claims to know better than the Microsoft lawyers, when MS required product activation for XP all along? Not so, I assume their lawyers had the same level of education as me, and have acted the same way as I would have. Do you really think XP product activation is a requirement outside the US? Think again. While MS may make it look that way (and why wouldn't they - 99% of the customers fall for it), in a lot of countries (including most of Europe) it is against the law, and they will supply anyone who is persistent enough with a key that doesn't require activation ('Persistent' means being able to quote the relevant piece of legislation/precedent).So, where does that leave software developers, who are obviously in a dire need to combat rampant piracy? A possible answer that is consistent with the Berne Convention on copyright (ratified by a majority of countries) would be to introduce 'User Binding', rather than 'Machine Binding'. The implementation of such a scheme would require the cooperation of hardware manufacturers, and the setting of an international standard, by which every customer upon application, or purchase of a computer would be given a 'Computer Owner's ID', which would never change and is entered into the BIOS. It is valid for life (like a national insurance number) and can be used on any computer. Any software licence key would be dependent on the Owner's ID, i.e. if the BIOS shows a different ID, I can't run the software - so most casual pirates are out of luck, unless they want to change their whole computer, OS and all, to the pirated ID (requiring ID-dependent keys for every piece of software). The advantage of such a system is, that it doesn't conflict with existing laws, and thus would be easily enforceable world-wide, unlike present schemes (Turbo Tax wasn't an attractive software title outside the US, was it? - yet it still generated a lot of aggravation).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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After reading all these messages throughly I decided to d/l the Cessna 310 from Flight1 with the intention of buying until I read the part of the install warning "If you plan to move this software after purchase to a computer that has no Internet access please do not purchase this software now, and contact your software's vendor for other purchasing options"My only PC that has dsl internet connection is my main host PC with WideView setup to 6 other PC's. The Pipex ISP I use does not allow use of my other PC's to link from the main PC which means I will not be able to use the Flight1 Cessna software on any of my other PC's without an internet connection!I did return to the Flight1 web site but cannot find any reference to my particular problem so it looks like the Pirates win again and what used to be a simple matter of d/l a new Aircraft purchase and flying it has become a thing of the past.

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>So, where does that leave software developers, who are>obviously in a dire need to combat rampant piracy? A possible>answer that is consistent with the Berne Convention on>copyright (ratified by a majority of countries) would be to>introduce 'User Binding', rather than 'Machine Binding'. The>implementation of such a scheme would require the cooperation>of hardware manufacturers, and the setting of an international>standard, by which every customer upon application, or>purchase of a computer would be given a 'Computer Owner's ID',>which would never change and is entered into the BIOS. It is>valid for life (like a national insurance number) and can be>used on any computer. Any software licence key would be>dependent on the Owner's ID, i.e. if the BIOS shows a>different ID, I can't run the software - so most casual>pirates are out of luck, unless they want to change their>whole computer, OS and all, to the pirated ID (requiring>ID-dependent keys for every piece of software). Do you understand that such a thing would be equivalent to wearing a homing beacon around your neck each time you get out of your house? These technologies have popped up now and then (like Pentium CPU ID's), and thankfully they were crushed each time. I wouldn't even begin to look at the amount of personal information the marketing folks (spam people and telemarketers) would automatically gather. Soon there would be a java applet in each page that reads your key and sends it to gator or Microsoft or who knows. Personal information has always been abused and will be in the future. This is the exact reason why so many battles are fought against Windows activation codes and MS Passport.>>Cheers,>>Gosta.Bye,Marty

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