Carenado C-210 II left bank with power, right bank reduced power?

[buccirj 1]

Hi folks,

 

 I'm new to X-Plane 10 but been flying FSX and older MS generation sims for many years and I have the Carenado C210 Centurion II loaded for both FSX and X-Plane 10.  So my problem is that in X-plane, this C210 banks left constantly with about 5-10 degrees per second role rate with full power and when I reduce power to idle, it'll start to bank right at the same rate.

 

Now, at cruise once power and prop have been adjusted, it'll level out the wings but this is not very realistic compared to the real aircraft.  How do I know?  Because I fly 182's and 206's.  I know the 210 has more power but the roll rate should not be that fast and normally there isn't much of one at all with power application.

 

So in X-plane there are plenty of ways to make adjustments such as through the Plane Maker in X-plane where I adjusted the aileron trim tab to a +01.00 in order to add more right trim but still does not address the roll problem with power application.

 

Is there a way to reduce the torque effect?  Torque should induce a left yaw with a climb and power added, and the sim does a good job of providing that torque effect to where I have to hold a little right rudder to keep the heading but left roll rate is not accurate at all.

 

Anyone have a fix for this?  I don't experience this on other aircraft in x-plane.

[jcomm 5,956]

email Austin Meyer, the author.

one day he will get so tired of reading the same, again & again, that he will fix it !!!

 

for the time being, enjoy the rest of the excellent features, and, as he once told me to do,  use aileron trim, even on aircraft not equipped with such in RL - it'll always work in X-Plane :-)

 

regarding righ bank / yaw tendencies, they are more realistic and usual to find in RL, because various factors contribute, and others do not compensate, such as:

 

- some aircraft being built with canted engines or tails, that account for the prop effects at cruise, and once you reduce power have the opposite effect;

- the prop being driven by the airmass and the engine being forced, and hence creating an opposite resistence that induces torque opposite of that created by a powered rotating prop (not very well explained, i know, but i'm sleepy right now...)

- other aerodynamic factors related to AoA, dynamic pressure, etc, during a descent at reduced power....

 

BTW, actually FSX has the same problem, but some FD parameters can be used to effectively overcome the torque effects, namely:

 

High Angle of Attack parameters:

The hi_alpha_on_roll and hi_alpha_on_yaw  parameters are multipliers on the effects on roll and yaw at high angles of attack.  The default values are 1.0.

 

Propeller-induced turning effect parameters:

The p_factor_on_yaw, torque_on_roll, gyro_precession_on_pitch and gyro_precession_on_yaw parameters are multipliers on the effects induced by rotating propellers. These are often called “left turning tendencies” for clockwise rotating propellers. The simulation correctly handles counter-clockwise rotating propellers. The default values are 1.0.

[LAdamson 240]

Hi folks,

I'm new to X-Plane 10 but been flying FSX and older MS generation sims for many years and I have the Carenado C210 Centurion II loaded for both FSX and X-Plane 10.  So my problem is that in X-plane, this C210 banks left constantly with about 5-10 degrees per second role rate with full power and when I reduce power to idle, it'll start to bank right at the same rate.

 

Now, at cruise once power and prop have been adjusted, it'll level out the wings but this is not very realistic compared to the real aircraft.  How do I know?  Because I fly 182's and 206's.  I know the 210 has more power but the roll rate should not be that fast and normally there isn't much of one at all with power application.

 

So in X-plane there are plenty of ways to make adjustments such as through the Plane Maker in X-plane where I adjusted the aileron trim tab to a +01.00 in order to add more right trim but still does not address the roll problem with power application.

 

Is there a way to reduce the torque effect?  Torque should induce a left yaw with a climb and power added, and the sim does a good job of providing that torque effect to where I have to hold a little right rudder to keep the heading but left roll rate is not accurate at all.

Anyone have a fix for this? I don't experience this on other aircraft in x-plane.

I'm well known as the "torque" complainer, and seem to get kicked off forums for doing so. In the meantime, I specifically asked a Cessna 210 owner about this "roll", and he said it didn't exist. I've flown numerous real life airplanes in which the left tire is being pushed against the runway asphalt on the take off roll. But it's usually overcome by the forces of lift & right engine cant before the wheels leave the surface.

 

In fact, in my quest to gather any tidbit of information in the last three months, I ran across a website in which the programmer for some 3rd party FSX aircraft has added the roll back in, by faking it with aileron. He said that FSX will create torque up to around stall speed. IMO, that's just how it ought to be, for generalized flight modeling.

 

Afterall, use of aileron creates drag. And drag creates yaw, which needs to be farther compensated with rudder. If this constant roll was a normal reality, aircraft designers would have used contra-rotating props for singles, and always counter-rotating props for twins, to cancel out the effect.

 

My Van's RV6A, which I built, had perfectly rigged wings, with the same incidence angle. The engine was canted to the right, and the rudder had a fixed tab for yaw. With a constant speed prop, I often called it a torque monster......if you did something such as a touch & go, where high power was combined with slow airspeed. It pushed the left gear down, which required right aileron correction, and of course, lots of right rudder. But once airborne, that was it, with rudder only through the early portion of the climb. I did have aileron trim for any weight/ balance issuses.....but it was certainly nothing you had to pay attention too, or feel that it had to be trimmed out of the stick. Many RV's skip the aileron trim all together.

 

I just read another inquiry of about the same thing. What really bothers me, is that some start to believe that this "roll" feature is probably more realistic, than FSX, because FSX does not do it. That's what seems to hit my "tick off" button more than anything else. Some of these inquiries get an answer about using aileron trim, as a temporary fix, as happened here. And yet I've seen statements, such as "disconnect yourself from FSX, as you're flying X-Plane now". Statements such as that, seem to imply the FSX is on the un-realistic side, as compared to X-Plane. I've flown plenty of real life GA & single engine aerobatic planes, to know that the sims are really not that different, in regards to better flight models. However, the "torque roll" problem, is a defining problem, that needs to be resolved.

 

L.Adamson

[LAdamson 240]

BTW, actually FSX has the same problem, but some FD parameters can be used to effectively overcome the torque effects, namely:

 

As noted in my other reply, a FSX 3rd party developer was advertising "realistic torque roll" for his models. This is a couple of years ago. The planes ranged from light weight LSA's to the T-28 Trojan with a large radial. His comments, were that FSX simulated torque roll effects, up to stall speed. Personally, I think he should have left it that way. I know very well that an LSA, isn't going to have the problem, and pilot reports for the T-28 don't show it either, unless it's a case of high power combined with low airspeed, such as a go-around. And of course, this phenomenon was responsible for flipping numerous WWII airplanes on to their back at the wrong time.

[MSFS Ralf 149]

I don't fly SE planes in XPX anymore. That bug is annoying and should habe been fixed long time ago. I open twins in Planemaker and let the engines counterrotate. That is an easy homemade fix.

[buccirj 1]

email Austin Meyer, the author.

one day he will get so tired of reading the same, again & again, that he will fix it !!!

 

for the time being, enjoy the rest of the excellent features, and, as he once told me to do,  use aileron trim, even on aircraft not equipped with such in RL - it'll always work in X-Plane :-)

 

regarding righ bank / yaw tendencies, they are more realistic and usual to find in RL, because various factors contribute, and others do not compensate, such as:

 

- some aircraft being built with canted engines or tails, that account for the prop effects at cruise, and once you reduce power have the opposite effect;

- the prop being driven by the airmass and the engine being forced, and hence creating an opposite resistence that induces torque opposite of that created by a powered rotating prop (not very well explained, i know, but i'm sleepy right now...)

- other aerodynamic factors related to AoA, dynamic pressure, etc, during a descent at reduced power....

 

BTW, actually FSX has the same problem, but some FD parameters can be used to effectively overcome the torque effects, namely:

 

High Angle of Attack parameters:

The hi_alpha_on_roll and hi_alpha_on_yaw  parameters are multipliers on the effects on roll and yaw at high angles of attack.  The default values are 1.0.

 

Propeller-induced turning effect parameters:

The p_factor_on_yaw, torque_on_roll, gyro_precession_on_pitch and gyro_precession_on_yaw parameters are multipliers on the effects induced by rotating propellers. These are often called “left turning tendencies” for clockwise rotating propellers. The simulation correctly handles counter-clockwise rotating propellers. The default values are 1.0.

 

 

I can not find the two values you described above in the Plane-maker in X-Plane.  Looked all over.  The only thing that comes close is the trim adjustments and even with a value of 01.00 on Aileron trim, it still wants to roll left with power applied and right with power off.

 

Although in real life with real aircraft there are such forces and honestly when I'm flying a real C-182, C-172, etc.  Either I don't notice it as much due to cross wind take-offs but a left roll isn't one of the forces I'm dealing with this pronounced in X-Plane.  Left yaw due to torque, yes but not a left or right roll at this rate.

 

anyway, is there a way to minimize this effect?  I can't find "Propeller-induced turning effect parameters" or "High Angle of Attack parameters:" in X-Plane to make the adjustments. 

 

Cheers,

Rob

[jcomm 5,956]

Yes,

 

there are at least 2 successful ways to solve it, but they come at the expense of the introduction of other problems, not really that important IMO if you simply don't feel right with it the way it is.

 

Solution 0) There are settings of aileron ( and sometimes coupled rudder ) trim that can effectively kill the roll effect under most flight regimes up to cruise. They're also combined with modified radii of gyration ( the MOIs of X-Plane... ). 

Good / positive examples of such a solution are the default Baron58 now in 10.22  the excellent MU-2 from X-Aviation, and others.

 

The only problem with this approach is the overdone effect of opposite rolling moment when you reduce power for a descent - you will than have to use irrealistic amounts of opposite aileron trim :-/

 

Solution 1) Use the Artificial Stability section of Plane Maker. I have a few posts on how to do it, but I couldn't find them here in the forum - I'll try to search more later today...

 

Basically using this approach you are using the very handy art stab features of X-Plane's augmented stability systems/devices to overcome all types of rolling tendencies due to torque, It will give you the roll up to the speeds you want to feel it, and will also take care of the opposite rolling moment when you reduce power :-)

 

The drawback is that - it isn't realistic, as LAdamson stated introduces aileron / spoiler deflections which introduce drag, which again would not be a good thing in RL, and the use of "programmed" roll rates can make your aircraft feel a bit like an Airbus or advanced fighter while maneuvering :-/

 

Solution 2) I have considered designing a "anti-torque-plugin" :-) but my joy with "flying" in RL ( now that it's the right season for gliding... ) and in P3D, ELITE, DCS, have taken me away from that task - flight simulation should better be spent simulating flight after all... 

 

The idea is to either create some sort of "unvisible" fuel transfer system, with a very fast throughput, that will pump it's tanks in the right direction depending on power settings, AoA, etc...

 

Yet another possibility is trying to force X-Plane 10 to feel better one of the RL effects that effectively oposes torque-induced roll - spiraling slipstream effects. They're modeled and you can see the higher lift component near the roots of your prop aircraft left wings ( for CW rotating props ), but not enough on the impact it has on the tail surface and fuselage as well as downside of the left wing ( CW rot prop) to overcome that rolling tendency. This would nonetheless imply the use of invisible wing surfaces, and if the X-Plane 10 FDM is well designed ( as I think it is... ) this would come at the expense of some strange effects that would then have to be compensated somehow :-/

 

The best solution:  KEEP EMAILING AUSTIN!!!!  You spanish / french guys who meet him at Palma every year or so, take him in a flight around the beautiful islands and then force him ( poor guy, I'm bad!!! ) to show where the roll due to torque is.. beware he's a smart guy and will try to kick the rudder or deflect the yoke without you noticing it, or start flying really slow :-). Pay him a great dinner, with excellent Portuguese red wine ( I can contribute with that, and I take it when I go flying single prop in X-Plane10 because it really helps ironing those effects... ) and make him promise he'll fix it ( AND MAKE A MOOVIE OF HIM SAYING SO!!!)

[woweezowee 10]

 I don't experience this on other aircraft in x-plane.

You other guys read this, right?

 

ok. So please contact Dan Klaue, the author of the flight model. The C185 isn't affected that much, too (*). So he basically already should know how to make it better.

 

If Austin changes the stuff system-wide, a whole lotta planes that already exist will be affected. Doesn't make sense to me to call for that. That already had happened several times, e.g. when Austin "fixed" the critical altitude.

 

Aircraft authors should adjust to what's there in such a major version run. Because it's possible to make good flight models in X-Plane.

 

 

(*) Curiously, the first version of the 152 for 64-bit (2.0) wasn't affected that much, too. Version 2.01, published only a short time later to adress some bugs, suddenly rolls way too much. So. This call has to go to Dan, not Austin. 

[MSFS Ralf 149]

All of my SE planes have the torque bug. The Carenado F33, the non-Carenado payware C185 [forgot who made it] and a bunch of planes by Jason Chandler. My twins have it too although I was able to make them useable by changing the rotation of one engine.

That, and a few more bugs [visibility, horizon and VOR range] must be adressed by Austin.

[woweezowee 10]

There's lots of stuff that has to be fixed by Austin and his team, that's right. But he's not the one to fix other peoples bogus flight models. It can be done better, Dan knows and should do better. There's a reason that alternate plane maker mods are discussed and suggested for nearly every Carenado single engine. For the C208 it was even published by Carenado themselves.

[MSFS Ralf 149]

I'm with you. If add on authors can fix it, they should do it. Because my complete fleet is affected I thought of a bug in the flight model engine.

However, let's hope for a fix. SE flying is fun!

[woweezowee 10]

A "fix" only comes with valuable input based on hard facts. As far as I know that was the latest state of affairs: 

 

Firstly, the changes in X-Plane have not come about because of people continuously saying "there's too much torque roll" or anything else that was posted.  People posting X-Plane issues in these forums, for the sole purpose of thinking Austin Meyer will check them and make changes, have simply wasted their time.  The changes have come about from developer feedback with solid facts and figures and also from the people who have opted to take part in the beta testing of each new version and provided valuable feedback to Laminar.

Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:40 AM

by Goran: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/410410-trying-to-like-x-plane/page-5#entry2690530

 

 

Edit: One last note:

 

Dan is very active in the *.org support forums. The issue should be taken there in order to get some "official" feedback (and discussion): http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showforum=106

[woweezowee 10]

Maybe I stand corrected. I got valuable information from one developer of aircraft for X-Plane, that a solution for the torque issue would require a plane maker setting of its own - at least.

 

So, ok. Back to FlyII for single engines?

Nah… I enjoy my X-Plane fleet.

 

Sorry for confusion.

[Alec 370]

I was hoping to use X-Plane for my IFR Traning, since the gauges smoothness is incredible, but this constant Torque Roll makes it impossible!

[danklaue 65]

Apparently, there's now a fix:  http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=69706&hl=