I was flying KBOS - KMDT IFR flying the Feel There ERJ (AWESOME A/C).. I normally fly twin props, lately the Flight One ATR. FS ATC has been adequate at all aspects of the flight at lower altitudes. But since I am transistioning to the ERJ, my flight plan altitude is FL 220. It does OK as far as the departure, cruise, etc.BUT the ILS approach for higher altitudes is another story. Can some one answer or verify why I was given a altitude of 8,000 ft, told to intercept the ILS, 14 miles out, and descend to 2300. Bottom line is there is not enough time to do this. So the approach was botched. How do you guys flying the ERJs and larger aircraft deal with this?Or is this the right approach altitude for KMDT runway 31 approach? Is this just an isolated approach problem due to somthing a miss in the FS ATC database? It is just a simple descent altitude threashold.When I fly the same route in the ATR, I fly at FL 120 and never have this problem. FS ATC brings me down to 2300 or close before tracking the 30' intercept to ILS 31.What are the procedures for the jets flying at high altitudes above 20K? Am I missing something?Thanks in advance!Barry

Bump to the top for comments...Barry

I'll jump in here. I do not ever recall an instance where ATC has given me descent directions that I could not make, yes sometimes I have to slow it down a bit or increase the rate of descent in order to hit my target but nothing unmanagable. That is not to say that you could have gotten some weird anamoly. It is early and I have yet to wake my brain up so I dare not try to calculate the numbers you gave right now! :-lol What rate of descent did you use in that situation and did you increase it at all?Philip OlsonI'm the luckiest man in the world, my girl friend has a yoke and rudder pedals! Eat your hearts out!http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

I've experienced problems when given the descent clearance and a strong tailwind. ATC doesn't make allowances for that. A plane like the PMDG 737 with VNAV guidance will start to scream "Add more drag" and show you how above the ideal glide path you are.If I don't have VNAV guidance, I use the rule of thumb that I should be below:(distance to airport in miles / 3) * 1000 feetand set my rate of descent accordingly.Therefore, at 14 miles out, with the benefit of hindsight ;-) , you should have been below (14 / 3) * 1000 = 4600 feet.Having said that, ATC can have problems trying to bring you down when there's high terrain in the way.

Yes it sounds like you're flying too fast or descending too slowly.

Here in ABQ if I am arriving from the east, ATC nearly runs me into the mountains and does its climb 1000 feet and before that is done to descend 1000 feet. Kind of like a yoyo. That is if you accept the approach ATC gives you on initial call up.A couple of weeks ago, I asked for a different approach and instead of the weird vectors, I was able to fly the "Published" approach. ATC did help out and give some headings and altitudes but none of the yoyo stuff and or the 90 intercept to the dogleg finals for the ILS. Needless to say I was shocked to see that there are more capabilities built into FS2004 than I had thought. Finally, most of the time I am brought in too high is because I have not been talking to ATC until I arrive in the terminal area. That is usually because I have been flying in the time compression mode and do not want to keep changing frequencies.Terry

At KMDT, there is no terrain. Again the only difference is:(A) my cruise altitude.(:( flying a jet, rather than a turbo prop.In the ATR at FL 120 everything works fine. ATC brings me down to 2300 immediately and then clears me for the ILS.In the ERJ, ATC brings me down from FL 220 to 8,000 and then clears for the ILS approach, as part of the cleareance, at 14 miles, ATC gives me "Descend and Maintain 2300. This is too late.Typically, I like to be at the approach altitude (2300) before clicking on the APR and riding the wave in (surfer's expression).Some Auto Pilots have issues if you select APR while still descending.Hopefully this will be fixed in the next version. Or when the next version of Radar Contact is released :)Barry

i guess the question is if atc was waiting for you to get to 8000 before clearing you, or was he waiting for 14 miles out? if he based the approach clearance on when you got to 8000, then yeah you need to get there sooner- the 3 to 1 is what most people use (also, make sure your rate of descent is one-half your groundspeed; that maintains the 3' with a tail or headwind.)if the clearance was based on 14 miles out at 8000', it would be tight. getting there is only half the battle- you still have to slow and configure. see if getting down to 8000' sooner makes things better. if not, then you might have to slow and get at least partially configured in anticipation of a slam dunk.usually atc is pretty good about getting you down- they know most jets can come down and slow down, just not at the same time.

BarryJust to clarify, are you talking about FS9's own ATC, or Radar Contact?

FS9 not Radar Contact...Barry

:-)Sounds like the age old problem for guys when they transfer to jets.Don't forget you're going faster and you're cruising higher. Descent planning requires quite a bit more forethought than a Turboprop.As someone has already mentioned, 3 * altitude (in thousands of feet) is a good rule of thumb. An equally good rule of thumb is that a descent rate of about 2000 to 2500fpm is usually about right for MS ATC.I don't really know about the ERJ but it may be possible to put an altitude restriction at a waypoint just before you intercept the ILS, that way the aircrafts FMC will give you some guidance as to the kind of descent profile required, you can then adjust the MCP altitude (the number on the glareshield) to comply with ATC.Have fun converting to a jet, things are going to happen much faster now but the world has just halved in size for you :-).Hope this helps,IanP.S. FL220 sounds a bit low for a jet, I don't know how long the trip is so I'm not saying that's wrong but unless weight or trip length dictate otherwise jets normally like to go into the early FL300's were possible for efficiency reasons.

Ian,What you are saying is that I didn't reach the 8,000 ft assigned altitude fast enough? If that is what you are thinking, not correct. I was at 8,000 ft for for a a good period of time, but FS ATC never gave me lower, until I was cleared for the ILS approach runway 31 KMDT.Unless, I didn't descend quick enough and FS ATC needed more distance. Why didn't FS ATC just clear me prior to the ILS clearance?I think that was the problem. Barry

Barry,No doubt about it, this is one area that FS2006 can improve on. Yes, sometimes in the real world ATC will leave you "high and dry." But more times than not, I've found that FS ATC will definately leave you too high.Bottom line Barryt is ALWAYS plan your own descents and never let ATC leave you high. You fly the airplane and as captain you should know the performance that will garantee making specific crossing restrictions. And, if ATC doesn't let you down at the time you plan for it, querry ATC and request a descent.A good general gouge that is widely used is a 3:1 descent profile. That is, of course, 3 miles for every thousand feet needed to descend. Also, a couple of general macro gouges that can be used are 100 miles from the aerodrome you should be no higher than FL300, and at 10 miles no higher than 3,000 feet. As you become more familiar with using the ratio you can start to add or subtract distance for headwinds and tailwinds.Also, remember that it takes distance to slow. 1 mile for each 10kts is a good place to start with. Plus, remember to add 3 miles for each 1,000 feet of descent that is BELOW 10,000 for US descents.Here is an example. You're cruising at FL280/300kts and ATC gives you a crossing restriction of 8,000. OK, here we go; We need to descend 20,000 feet and slow down 50kts so lets crunch some quick numbers. 20x3=60. 60+5= 65miles, with no wind, will be needed to make this crossing restriction. If you don't receive a descent clearance by this distance from your crossing restriction it is time to start requesting one.Overall, FS ATC will definately leave you high and dry. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot we can do about that until MS improves on the built-in ATC. In the mean time, you can realize that this is a limitation of FS ATC and something to plan in advance for.Gary Hawk"HAWKMAN"

I totally disagree with many of the responses here, but do agree with totally with Gary Hawk aka HAWKMAN's response. FS9 ATC will almost always keep me high and dry if I let them, and so (while flying the PMDG 737NG almost exclusively) I always start requesting a decent about 30-40 miles before my projected TD (top of descent). This gets me down and I just continue to request lower altitudes to where I am roughly at 11k-14k feet at 80-100 miles from the airport. Keep in mind this is the way they feed traffic from the north into Jacksonville, and I know it to be fact because I have spent several weeks observing at ZJX (Jacksonville Center) in Hillard, FL. So, just waiting for the next versio of FS to improve, and also to finally buy Radar Contact when it gets upgraded to include AI traffic.PS- Here's one rule of thumb no one should disagree with: The Captain Always has the final say. Take charge of your descent and plan it accordingly to terrain, Minnimum Descent altitude, and obstacles!Eric Twww.freewebs.com/flightlevel180/

Yes, I have had this too.Location; within twenty miles of destination, Heathrow (EGLL)FS9 ATC: "Maintain FL330"FS10.......helllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppppppp :-jumpy Dave. (KNT5100G)