Radar Contact: SIDS, STARS and Approach Procedures

[ap1 16]

Ok, I get confused on some SIDS, STARS and Approach Procedures.  On some SIDS, I see a part where it says to expect vectors to a fix.  For example, take a look at the Loop Seven Departure out of KLAX.  Here's the link: http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1405/pdf/00237LOOP.PDF.  How would Radar Contact handle this, since this SID chart says to takeoff heading 250 and then expect Radar Vectors back to LAX VOR?  I'm using the default GPS for the flights I do, so I don't know what to plug in the flight planner.  A few other STARS I'm confused on is the Lynnx Eight arrival into KBUR.  It says after VNY VOR to expect Radar Vectors for runway 8 most likely.  Here's the link for it: http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1405/pdf/00067LYNXX.PDF.  I don't know the correct way to do this STAR with Radar Contact.  Would Radar Contact vector me the right way on this STAR, or would I have to do something else?  There are plenty of other SIDS and STARS that I don't understand, but these are a few.  There are also other SIDS that I've seen that you just take radar vectors for, and how would you do that in Radar Contact?  Now something on Approach Procedures I've seen is something called Radar Required.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it means to expect Radar Vectors to the IAF or the FAF.  How would you do these types of Procedures in Radar Contact?  Anyway, there have been a few flights where I get really confused and since Radar Contact has no SIDS or STARS in the database, I really have no idea how best to fly these SIDS and STARS in Radar Contact.  Sorry for so many questions, but it seems that I'm just not an expert at these yet.  I didn't see anything like this in the manual that explains these types of procedures, so I'm wondering how you would do it.  The main thing is, that I would like to make almost any flight with not many problems.  So it seems that I have lots to learn, lol.  Thanks very much in advance, and I hope I gain more knowledge of these procedures so I can fly them with RC.  And RC is an excellent program, and enjoy what it does.  

[ronzie 21]

I included some information in my reply to you in this thread:

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/440525-radar-contact-flight-planning/

 

I can't get into details today but tomorrow pending severe weather interference here (power) I'll give more details.

 

Have you read the tutorials? A lot of your questions are answered.

[ap1 16]

Hi Ronzi thanks. I have scimmed through the tutorials but didn't read the whole thing.  I will try to read the whole thing sometime.

[ronzie 21]

Hi Ronzi thanks. I have scimmed through the tutorials but didn't read the whole thing.  I will try to read the whole thing sometime.

 

That would be very beneficial.

 

To summarize:

 

A. Departures are three kinds as shown on the preflight controller page:

 

1. Altitude Restrictions is for no RC vectors within the 30 nm RC departure area. Altitude commands are issued however. You do your own navigation to line up and cross the first waypoint outside of that 30 nm limit.

 

2. No Altitude Restrictions is the same as (1.) without altitude commands.

 

3. No Departure Procedure Procedure where RC issues vectors and altitudes to line you up with the first waypoints outside of the 30 nm departure limit.

 

If the flight plan you send to RC contains a checkpoint within 30 nm of take-off then RC assumes you are flying a published procedure and only options (1.) or (2.) will be available and (3.) not available. If your first checkpoint is outside of 30 nm then all three are available options.

 

The checkpoint accuracy limits I think are two nm to get credit for crossing them in the departure phase. Always look at the RC in-flight window to see the next checkpoint you must get credit for.

 

Also check the manual for using the NOTAMS option on the controller page. RC becomes less strict in following commands in the departure phase.

 

For KLAX LOOP7 DP here is in part LOOP6 (same as 7) sent to RC destination Vegas:

 

KLAX LOOP6 DAG CLARR.CLARR2 KLAS/0040

 

                        M/H FL                   WIND   ATC

TO          NM  AWY     M/C TAS G/S   ZT  ACTME ETA ATA  ACBO ABO REM AREM

 

 N3356.0/W11825.9       232 CLB                 000000  LAX

LAX 113.60  001 LOOP6   232 324 324 00/00 00/00 .../... 0000/... 0080/...

 

The plan (created with FSBuild 2.4) shows only one mile to the LAX VOR taking off to the west. Then

 

 N3400.5/W11817.9       042 CLB                 000000  LAX

KEGGS       008 LOOP6   042 324 324 00/01 00/01 .../... 0003/... 0077/...

 

 N3407.2/W11806.0       041 CLB                 000000  LAX

COOPP       012 LOOP6   041 324 324 00/02 00/03 .../... 0007/... 0073/...

 

 N3436.7/W11714.3       041 CLB                 000000  LAX

TOC         052 LOOP6   041 324 324 00/09 00/13 .../... 0027/... 0054/...

 

 N3457.7/W11634.6       043 320                 000000  LAX

DAG 113.20  029 LOOP6   043 453 453 00/03 00/17 .../... 0029/... 0051/...

 

 N3532.6/W11550.9       032 320                 000000  LAX

TOD         050 DCT     032 453 453 00/06 00/24 .../... 0034/... 0046/...

 

 N3540.5/W11540.7       033 DSC                 000000  LAX

CLARR       011 DCT     033 311 311 00/02 00/26 .../... 0035/... 0045/...

 

then so on with the total to KEGGS 12 nm. Following that the rest are outside of departure zone of RC.

 

Depending on your aircraft navigation equipment it may have a procedure data base to do the take-off left turn to LAX then continuing to KEGGS and so on. If not, you will use heading control (if on AP) to manually make the left turn as indicated on the chart to cross LAX. According to the LOOP 7 chart you start the turn at 15 nm DME from the SMO VOR then to cross LAX. On RC's controller page you will only see options (1.) and (2.) available, no vectors.

 

For runway specific SIDS include only common waypoints if you wish since you will not firmly know your take-off runway because of AI behavior. You can specify on RC's controller page a take-off runway at the risk of AI conflicts, or you can change RC's runway assignment when ground issues it.

 

For NE departure off of the east runways at LAX GABRE8 would be used. Here the first plan waypoint is GABRE but the published procedure requires controlled turns based on DMEs of VOR SLI. You can use the NOTAMS option and follow the plate procedures selecting resume own nav to go from your present position direct to GABRE after declaring on course from RC's suggested vectors or select one of the Alt options to keep RC quiet until you are on course tor GEBRES.

 

In this example KLAX is one of the most complicated airports because of terrain and traffic protection.

 

In heading south or southeast the options are more generous in the SNGO6 departure. In both cases you can cheat a bit going to San Diego, about a 100 nm commuter run. The first plan waypoint is the SEAL BEACH VOR for east runway departures or turns and vectors to get to CARDI. If you include SLI you will not get vectors from RC. For your first plan waypoint choose COSER AT 33 NM or just the common waypoint of CARDI. CARDI to KSAN is 25 nm but RC might pull you off earlier to get vectors to KSAN. This is typical for a dense area such as this.

 

I'm worn out for the moment so will get to STARs another time.

 

I will make one important suggestion.

 

For learning RC start out with simpler traffic large airports but not northeast or Southern California (SOCAL) which requires real world another level of ATC because of its terrain hand very high traffic density. Try KMSP to KOMA, Minneapolis to Omaha at 32,000 feet (FL320):

 

KMSP ORSKY7.FOD DABOY.LANTK1 KOMA

 

Here's the FSX plan:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="Windows-1252"?>

 

<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">

    <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>

    <FlightPlan.FlightPlan>

        <Title>KMSP to KOMA</Title>

        <FPType>IFR</FPType>

        <RouteType>HighAlt</RouteType>

        <CruisingAlt>32000</CruisingAlt>

        <DepartureID>KMSP</DepartureID>

        <DepartureLLA>N44° 52' 55.00" , W93° 13' 18.00",</DepartureLLA>

        <DestinationID>KOMA</DestinationID>

        <DestinationLLA>N41° 18' 11.00" , W95° 53' 38.00",</DestinationLLA>

        <Descr>KMSP, KOMA</Descr>

        <DeparturePosition>04</DeparturePosition>

        <DepartureName>MINNEAPOLIS-ST_PAUL_INTL</DepartureName>

        <DestinationName>OMAHA/EPPLEY_AIRFIELD</DestinationName>

        <AppVersion>

            <AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>

            <AppVersionBuild>60905</AppVersionBuild>

        </AppVersion>

        <ATCWaypoint id="KMSP">

             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N44° 52' 55.00",W93° 13' 18.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>KMSP</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="JURNY">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N44° 36' 31.00",W93° 28' 20.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>JURNY</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="RUMLE">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N44° 25' 16.00",W93° 37' 27.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>RUMLE</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="PEDLN">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N44° 12' 09.00",W93° 48' 01.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>PEDLN</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="ORSKY">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N43° 40' 11.00",W94° 13' 22.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>ORSKY</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="FOD">

             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N42° 36' 40.00",W94° 17' 41.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>FOD</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="DABOY">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N41° 53' 19.00",W94° 27' 34.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>DABOY</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="LANTK">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N41° 30' 44.00",W95° 07' 56.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>LANTK</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="KOMA">

             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N41° 18' 11.00",W95° 53' 38.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>KOMA</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

    </FlightPlan.FlightPlan>

</SimBase.Document>

 

 

 

which will let you do 268nm in your preferred jetliner in a reasonably short enroute time giving you both a SID and STAR with common runway waypoints I believe. You will have no vectors departing KMSP since the first waypoint is at 19 nm so you navigate your own departure to that first waypoint lining up with the second. UIse the heading guidance in RC's window. (I also dropped the MSP on airport local VOR at 1 nm, too close and tight and it is not really used.

 

Try that if you can. Then step up to the more complicated routines as you get more familiar with RC, your aircraft, and flight planning.

[ap1 16]

Thanks for the detailed instructions.  I'll try that out when I have a chance.  Radar Contact seems like a fantastic program much much better than the default atc.  

[Driver170 42]

You mentioned no.2 No alt rest - doesn't give you alt commands buy says in the manual it gives you an initial alt command?

 

Confused.

[ronzie 21]

Controller tab for any airport departure zone (up to 30nm out) offers three choices:

 

Altitude Restrictions - no vectors but altitudes commanded and monitored - continuous climb required to each commanded altitude.

No Altitude restrictions - no vectors or altitudes commanded other than initial but altitudes not monitored nor continuous climb required.

No Departure Procedure - vectors and altitudes commanded with continuous climb.

 

The difference is how you get to the initial altitude.

 

Yes, it can be confusing.

 

The CD initial altitude is the goal but you can climb in whatever climb rate or steps you wish in step climbs (a step here is a portion of level flight).

 

The two altitudes given in the CD is the initial and your requested cruise level (if available - expect feet or flight level requested within ten minutes of departure.

[Driver170 42]

Ahh thanks alot for that information