Hi Guys

 

I'm trying to learn some more advanced flight operations, and am pretty used to programming a route into the FMC and using SIDs / STARs etc.

 

However I've just seen something for the first time.

 

I'm mid flight and planning my approach into Montreal 06L, and I have programmed in my desired runway and STAR

 

Here you can see the STAR (CARTER1)

 

 

Now, after PEKLO there is no "link" to the next waypoint of XULTA, and the chart says that you would expect vectors to final approach.

 

So, in the FMC I see this:

 

 

The approach looks like this on the plan:

 

 

So, in real life, once you pass PEKLO, you would continue on that heading until ATC give you "turn by turn" guidance onto the final approach and LOC/GS capture, yes?

 

How do you deal with this in the sim environment? I'm used to leaving the aircraft in LNAV/VNAV until I capture the ILS, then I enter LOC to line up with the runway, then enter APPR as I capture the G/S.

 

In this situation, do I pass PEKLO and then continue on that heading for a while, then enter HDG mode to put me on an intercept path with XULTA?

 

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question!

 

Thanks

Martin

 

 

So, in real life, once you pass PEKLO, you would continue on that heading until ATC give you "turn by turn" guidance onto the final approach and LOC/GS capture, yes?

 

Correct. PEKLO is the Downwind Termination Waypoint (DTW), beyond which you are to continue on the charted heading (273M) until receiving vectors to the final approach course from ATC.

 

In real life, you would expect two heading changes: One to a 'base' heading (330 ish), and the second to a heading within about 30 degrees of the final approach course. After that you can expect clearance for the approach.

 

 

 

In the sim, there's nothing wrong with self-vectoring yourself to the final approach course once past PEKLO. In fact, the communication failure procedure requires that the pilot does just that:

 

"If a communication failure occurs prior to the DTW, the pilot is expected to select transponder code 7600 and, unless alternative instructions or clearances have been received from ATC, continue to the DTW, then to the FACF, intercept the final approach course, and fly the straight-in approach. All charted altitude and speed restrictions remain mandatory...."

 

"If a communication failure occurs after the aircraft has passed the DTW, the pilot is expected to select transponder code 7600 and, unless alternative instructions or clearances have been received from ATC, proceed direct to the FACF, and fly the straight-in approach. All charted altitude and speed restrictions remain mandatory..."

 

Taken from the Transport Canada Aeronautical Information Manual, RAC Section 9.2.3, p273, "Communication Failures"

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/5_RAC_E.pdf

Also, regarding normal procedures on an open RNAV STAR:

 

"....ATC may close the RNAV STAR by issuing an approach clearance at least 3 NM prior to the DTW. When the approach clearance is issued, the pilot shall comply with charted altitude and speed restrictions and fly the RNAV STAR track to the DTW, then to the FACF (turn anticipation), intercept the final approach course and conduct a straight-in approach. This procedure does not include a procedure turn. If an approach clearance is not received prior to the DTW, the pilot shall maintain the charted heading after the DTW and ATC will provide vectors to a point from which the aircraft can fly the straight-in approach. ATC may, after the DTW, clear the aircraft direct to the FACF for the straight-in approach"

 

Same source.

 

Correct. PEKLO is the Downwind Termination Waypoint (DTW), beyond which you are to continue on the charted heading (273M) until receiving vectors to the final approach course from ATC.

 

In real life, you would expect two heading changes: One to a 'base' heading (330 ish), and the second to a heading within about 30 degrees of the final approach course. After that you can expect clearance for the approach.

 

 

 

In the sim, there's nothing wrong with self-vectoring yourself to the final approach course once past PEKLO. In fact, the communication failure procedure requires that the pilot does just that:

 

 

Thanks for that. When I come up against this type of approach in future I will just enter heading select mode after the DTW then "self vector" as you suggest.

What do you do about managing your descent in this way? Would you enter VS mode after PEKLO with the aim of hitting XULTA at the G/S intercept altitude?

 

I'm used to just staying in VNAV until the G/S comes alive at which point I hit APPR and the aircraft essentially guides itself down. I then disengage at around 1000ft to hand fly down to the runway.

 

 

Thanks for that. When I come up against this type of approach in future I will just enter heading select mode after the DTW then "self vector" as you suggest.
What do you do about managing your descent in this way? Would you enter VS mode after PEKLO with the aim of hitting XULTA at the G/S intercept altitude?

 

No worries. 

 

In reality, you would be level at (or close to leveling at) about 3,000-4,000 feet by the time you hit PEKLO (note the charted altitude/speed restrictions). More often than not, you would remain at that altitude while being vectored around and intercept the G/S from there.

 

If you're a bit high (due to late ATC instruction, traffic congestion or otherwise), ATC will likely extend your downwind a bit until you get down....or just vector you far enough out that you can intercept the G/S from the higher altitude.

 

Cheers,

DB

Looking at the chart you should be pretty close to the desired altitude for xulta after crossing peklo. Just connect xulta with peklo in the fms by placing peklo on the vector entry. Or just fly straight with heading select and turn around and line up for loc capture. FLCH tends to be better for descents because you can control your speed better. Speed intervene and select a speed, flch, descend to where you need to be. Continue slowing down with flch as you come down the glideslope. This really isn't that hard. So many virtual tube pilots get "stuck" on the magenta line. Just fly the plane! Get where you need to be to land. You could even land visually after peklo with no more fms. What would do in a cessna 172? Descend, watch your speed, and line up with the runway, land. 737 is the same, just bigger, heavier, faster.

Note that the FSX ATC is not always realistic or convenient. Personally I don't use it at all, and if the approach is not already fully programmed into the FMC, I use "heading" to intercept the glideslope at a reasonable altitude , and press "appr" when I am almost lined up. In fact this is almost necessary  (with our without ATC) with the Majestic Q400 Dash 8, since among other things it has no autoland and one cannot adjust the course while in "nav" mode (so one has to be in "heading" mode while adjusting the course to the runway heading) . In sum, when approaching the next to last approach waypoint, one sets the heading to the next to last approach heading (which will intersect the glideslope), press the "Hdg" button, then set the course to the runway heading, and when the plane approaches the glideslope, one presses  the "appr" button and the plane lines up with the runway and later grabs the glideslope. Some airplanes will set the runway course by themselves from the FMC, but not the Q400.

 

The Q400 is a bit finicky about holding the glideslope and the speed has to be controlled manually as well as the landing itself (no autoland).

 

Henri

 

 

with the Majestic Q400 Dash 8, since among other things it has no autoland and one cannot adjust the course while in "nav" mode (so one has to be in "heading" mode while adjusting the course to the runway heading)

 

Hey Henri, I'm pretty sure you can adjust the course while in Nav mode. Just press and hold the "FORMAT" button just below either FMC. That should give you a CDI on the MFD, which you can then adjust with the Course knob.

 

(disclaimer....I haven't flown the Q4 for a while, so I may be off)

 

Cheers,

DB