I'm just reading an FAA manual (Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, FAA-H-8083-25), and the section on ground effect got me wondering if this is a phenomenon which is modelled in FS2002 or FS2004. Does anyone have any genuine experience of this effect?I guess I'll have to try this and see if it can be measured.

I started another thread recently that dealt with that subject. IMHO, the basic answer is no. I'm a RW pilot and I have yet to find a aircraft that models ground effect realistically. Most don't model it at all as far as I can tell.In fact, the modeling of the entire landing event is unrealistic in most cases in that you can just "drive it on" with virtually no flare and get a "chirp and stick" landing (i.e. no bounce).A very few aircraft will give you something of a bounce but none that I have flown generate the float that is caused by excessive airspeed when the plane gets into ground effect.Since many of the machines I fly were designed by people who have extensive experience in flight modeling, my assumption is that the inability to model float results from a limitation in the FS9 engine.Since, in general, it is WAY easier to land virtually all FS aircraft than is the case ITRW, I also wonder whether the developers are concerned that if their landing models were TOO realistic, that it would negatively impact their sales due to bad reviews, complaints etc.As I mentioned in the other thread, while I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, when landing most sim aircraft, as long as you have reduced your rate of decent to a couple hundred fpm, then you get a lovely chirp. You can even land in a nose down attitude as long as your decent rate is low enough.That's just not the way it is ITRW.Regards,Jim

Since Jim is a r/w pilot I absolutely defer to him re the basic answer and fs, but there's one fde package that sticks out in my mind - Pedro Olivera's (spelling?) A320 dynamics. You have to be very, very careful with speed close to the ground, there is a definite, noticeable 'cushioning effect' that can cause you to balloon with too much flare/speed. According to the former fde man for a payware group the effect is possible to be modelled, but I guess as Jim says it probably isn't all that realistic. regards,Mark3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256

>>That's just not the way it is ITRW.Yup, I agree completely. I have to really work to make a bad landing in FS. I wish I could say that in real life.Ground effect is important, but many other factors can make real-world landing a much bigger challenge than simming. I would guess that variable wind is at the top of the list. The wind is almost never constant, either direction or velocity, throughout the approach. Buildings on the ground near the runway threshold, different ground surfaces (paved/grass/trees, etc.), all contribute to continuous changes in wind direction and velocity. Flying something small and light like a 172, you're almost always making constant adjustments to the controls as you get close to landing. That just doesn't happen in FS.

>>>That's just not the way it is ITRW.>>Yup, I agree completely. I have to really work to make a bad>landing in FS. Maybe I could put together a tutorial :-lol

I only can agree on that! As a R/W Pilot I hardly can think of fs-like smoothness at landings. FS is like a dull summer evening with no winds at all in R/W. :)It would be very cool if MS would model the effect of obstacles on the ground producing different types of turbulences.I once made a flight around the milano area in italy in a piper warrior II. Due to the airspace structure we wheren't allowed to fly higher than 2000ft AMSL. At that day there was a pretty strong wind blowing with about 30kt and we where flying right in the turbulant friction layer for over an hour!I never had such a bad flight before! You couldn't trimm the aircraft for level flight because of the continuously changing windspeeds. I had to correct the whole flight to mantain my desired altitude. Sometimes we where so near at the ground you had literaly fly around the churches!Navigation with all the smog and low altitude wasn't easy either. Everyone who has been to milano in summer knows what I'm talking about! :) Also my stomach was getting noisy over time. I just never experienced that before when flying and don't want to either!At that point I still had to fly an approach at lugano airport (Switzerland) in stormy conditions and was pretty releaved when finally touching the ground again!That just doesn't happen in FS! :-hahbest regards,Claudio

As a r/w pilot (well working on the license at least, 40 hours only so far :( ), I agree that there is virtually no ground effect in FS2004. If you try and land the 172 in flightsim as you do in the real world your tail will smash the ground trying to flare.There is one aircraft which I think has an at least decent flare to it and that is the Dreamfleet Cardinal.Either way it is definately a limitation of FS9. I also agree that FS is quite benign as far as wind and turbulance go. I hope that convection currents are included in the next version, so you sail up in an updraft and go back down in the surrounding downdraft. Mechanical turbulance from obstacles around the airport would be great, though it may be hard to model, but even just more variable winds would be nice.Anyways you really shouldn't flare fully in FS9 unless you want to rip the aircraft's tail off lol.

Ground effect is included in FS2004, it's just that very few airfile designers can get it "right". For an example of great ground effect, check out the Aeroworx B200.

I'm not entirely sure as I haven't paid much attention to that particular phenomenon while flying it. But I think the Piper Warrior II/III package from Aussim has it built in. I have managed to do a fairly decent soft-field take off in it. I don't feel it floats as much on approach as it should though. We often float half way down Spokane International's main runway since we usually have to taxi midfield even if we do land short. Ah, the joys of flying Piper Warrior IIIs out of an airport designed for large jets.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

>Ground effect is included in FS2004, it's just that very few>airfile designers can get it "right". For an example of great>ground effect, check out the Aeroworx B200.There are definately FS airplanes that have that "float" to them. This effect is also "somewhat faked, adjusted & tweaked" in X-Plane, and varies with aircraft.

I could swear that I get it with the RealAir Spit!James

So it would seem that it depends on the airfile of the plane you're flying?In r/w flying, is ground effect more or less noticeable in commercial jets compared to GA aircraft? I suspect the GA aircraft have a more noticeable sensation merely due to their smaller size and lower inertia, but this is purely conjecture on my part.Hmm, I'm hearing more & more good things about the RealAir Spitfire, maybe I'll check it out. :)

HI All,Ground effect, or its approximation is sort of modelled in FS9, and has been present in Flight Simulator previous versions too.However it does not directly model the cushioning effect typically encountered with aircraft having large wing areas relatively close to the ground. What it does do, as far I as can see, is too effectively decrease induced drag, or maybe slightly increase lift (but that is doubtful) when close to the ground, and it this can only be crudely adjusted.I do not think it is fair to criticise developers about this, unless they grossly exaggerate or grossly under-supply the effect. There is really not much one can work with.Kind Regards,Rob Young www.realairsimulations.com

Here's a quick question for you: When is ground effect a godsend?

It's good to hear from an air modeller such as yourself on this Rob. I apreciated your work in the Fly! series.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach