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Guest wildfire563

STARS & SIDS

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Many people would like MS to include STARS and SIDS in the next release of FS. I checked the charts for Gatwick (EGKK), which has a pair of parallel runways (only one of which is in use at any given time) and found that:There are 5 STARS with several entry points and which terminate at the named holds:TIMBA (6)ASTRA-North (2)ASTRA-West (3)WILLO-North (4)WILLO-West (3)There are 2 approach procedures each of which gives routes from the 5 holds to NDBs:NDB GY365 for 08RNDB GE338 for 26LThere are 9 separate final approach procedures without radar control to:08R (4)08L (1)26L (3)26R (1)There are 10 SIDS: LAMBOURNE (08 and 26)BIGGIN (08 and 26)CLACTON (08 and 26)HARDY (26 only as alternative to SEAFORD not available 2300-0600 winter and 2200-0500 summer)KENNET (08 and 26 restricted to UK/Eire traffic)SOUTHAMPTON (08 and 26)SEAFORD (08 and 26)DOVER (08 and 26)WIZAD (26 only tactical alternative to DOVER)TIGER (26 only tactical alternative to LAMBOURNE or CLACTON)Two questions:Would it not be asking to much to expect MS to provide this level of detail for airports worldwide?Is there not enough information in the Scenery SDK to enable 3rd parties to develop these for individual airports?

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At the moment there are some add on planes that have a database for them. And that may be the problem, they don't come with scenery so the Scenery SDK wouldn't apply. It could be good if they could somehow be incorporated in AfCad style files perhaps, in a future version.

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I think most of these are already in a publically available database. So wouldn't it be a matter of MS just incorporating this data into FS and then letting the user choose which SID, STAR, etc. to use?The other problem is that it's not even possible in FS2004 to fly a STAR even if you go thru the trouble of programming it into the flight planner. I'd be happy if it were just possible for the user to program in the SID/STARs themself and have FS let the player fly it. For me, this problem makes 50% of the ATC features in FS useless because I can't file an IFR flight plan.Matt

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MS has a contract with Jeppesen, I'm sure they'd just import their database in along with the navaids, fixes etc...

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I think that it would be difficult for MS to incorporate such procedures in the flight simulator database. One thing that they could do is make the flight planner more functional and allow the player to tag parts of the flight plan as SIDs and STARs which the ATC would follow, or, issue direct tos, in accord with the surrounding traffic.Regards,

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Microsoft should include a "real" flightplannerThe "player" must go into a briefinf before he can take off. You'll have to plan fuel usage, calculate a "real" route with enroute weather in mind. Then you must "print" the flight plan and save it in the airlines network. Before you will start, the fuel will be filled into your tanks and the before flightplan is copied into your aircrafts FMCThat would be cool.Just make it more real please

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The Scenery SDK has a section dealing with approaches and legs that seems to reflect very closely the standard ARINC 424 legs coded as AF - VR.That's why I though 3rd parties could develop packages for airports. I admit I'm not an expert on this.

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Here's what I found out (by accident):If you land at an airport, shut down, load another flight plan with a SID (or Departure Procedure as they are now called) in it, ATC will let you follow it. An example of this was when I flew from Boeing Field to Phoenix with a stop at Bob Hope Airport (KBUR).I shut down the engines, load the KBUR-KPHX leg, requested clearance, taxied, then took off. The only communications directed to me after the tower handoff to departure were handoffs to departure and center.But of course, if you want the SIDs and STARs now, you can always get Radar Contact.

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A follow-up post.Am I correct in assuming that SIDS/STARS are already available in some 3rd party packages?Is there an interaction with AI? Are, for example, holds included when traffic levels are high?

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Correct. The capability is already there.There are even some approaches in the default database already for a lot of airports, many of which are close to the real ones.I guess the people whining about Microsoft not providing terminal procedures never use the default GPS or at least never took the time to figure out how to use it to its potential which is considerable.

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STARs are there in case you get no directions from ATC. As in FS you always get directions from ATC and those override your programmed STAR (as they would in the real world) there's nothing to complain about.

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yes. And when you violate any regulations you are grounded until an investigation is concluded.This can be easily simulated by forcing you to spend an amount of time equivalent to several months of simtime sitting behind your computer with FS running but no aircraft being available for your use.If the investigation then decided your license should be revoked FS will remove itself after inserting a registry key which causes any attempt at reinstallation to fail.

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SID and DP aren't the same. SIDs are one specific form of DP (or was that DPs being a specific form of SID, I keep forgetting).

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Some 3rd party packages include them yes. They may not have a complete database (depending on the completeness of the data used to construct it).There can be no interaction with AI. In real life holds and such are declared by ATC, in FS the ATC AI isn't yet intelligent enough to declare holds (though I have from time to time been sent on very circuitious routes so ATC could line up traffic at decent intervals).

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When you are flying IFR, you can already request some STARS and SIDS in the current version of MSFS. You are given the option then cleared to fly the approach.

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QUOTE"When you are flying IFR, you can already request some STARS and SIDS in the current version of MSFS. You are given the option then cleared to fly the approach." I have seen this same type statement on several occasions here at AVSIM.Each time I respond with a show me an example of where these STAR's exsist in FS9 I get no answers.Would you be so kind to point me in the direction of where I can get ATC(flying IFR)to vector me onto the arrival of a published STAR.

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And each time I tell you that ATC will vector you as it sees fit in the real world as it does in FS.

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Who are these `many people`? Never seen a poll of every FS owner. Never been asked MY opinion. Without it that opinion is just `pie-in-the-sky`.SIDs and STARs are normally unnecessary for me. Why should I have to pay for YOUR desire to have SID's and STARS when I don't want them.That is why the aftermarket exists. To build on the basic `platform` that is supplid by MSFSSIDs and STARS are readily available in a number of aftermarket packages. Just buy one of them, fly them ith the aid of one of the aftermarket ATC packages or even a real simulator Air Traffic Controller, and be ahppy you get what you want, and the rest of us didn't have to pay for it.As Jeroen says, with the base package you will always be vectored by ATC. Thats sufficient for my needs, and, I suspect, `many people`.Allcott

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I suspect that one of the biggest reasons that Microsoft doesn't include SID/STARs in the ATC engine is the the complexity of doing it right, not to mention the huge file size associated with recording the names of every SID/STAR on the planet, and every possible variation of them.That would be a huge file!Bryan

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BryanThat was the point I was making in my original post. 3rd parties seem to be able to provide SIDS and STARS for those who want them.

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>Who are these `many people`? >>SIDs and STARS are readily available in a number of>aftermarket packages. Just buy one of them, fly them ith the>aid of one of the aftermarket ATC packages>>AllcottProblem is the FS ATC will not work with someone flying SID/STAR. I don't care if MS includes SID/STARs, but would be nice if the ATC would allow someone to fly one. As it is now, if you want to fly a SID/STAR, you can't use most of the ATC features.This is strictly a marketing issue for MS. Every new version of FS, they have to add some new features.Matt

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>SID and DP aren't the same. >SIDs are one specific form of DP (or was that DPs being a>specific form of SID, I keep forgetting).Yes they are - the term SID was renamed to DP in the US a few years ago...

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You seem to not understand what SIDs and STARs are for. They're NOT for strict following when under ATC guidance, they're for situations where ATC is unavailable and as an indication of what ATC may tell you to do.ATC (if available) can at any time order you off your procedure and tell you to do something different.If you were in a real aircraft with a nice STAR selected and a hundred miles out the controller tells you to do something else in a real aircraft (this happens), are you going to complain to the aviation authorities because they didn't use STARs?

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I know these examples exist for KCVG (Greater Cincinnati, Ohio). So far they also exist at ,oster bigger airports I use-haven't checked them all. As to where they are here goes:IF you are on an IFR FS9 flight plan, ATC will always call you anywhere from 50-70 nm from your destination airport. The purpose of this ATC call is to begin vectoring/descent for approach to a runway that is named for you at this time by ATC. Look closely at your ATC response menu - there are choices you have missed. The first choice is always to accept the given vector. But I always see 2 more choices. I can request a different runway or I can request a different approach. Here quickly I choose to select a different approach (still to the original runway that was assigned.) A list of available approaches usually several pages long appears. I like to choose the RNAV/GPS approach for the assigned runway. You will be asked to pick a transition fix from a list. Now if you have the published STAR charts for your destination airport in front of you it's EZ to tell from where you are and which runway you want which of the fixes to choose. Each one of those fixes will be on one of the STAR charts.The real problem is that a Standard Terminal Arrival Route starts far more than 50-70 nm from the destination. ATC should be letting you pick the arrival route farther away and the fixes should be the transition entry points for the STARS. If you haven't tried selecting a different approach (or even runway -useful when there a parallel runways), I recommend you try it. If your plane uses either of the default GPS gauges these approaches/fixes are selectable in the GPS and can be coupled and flown. Go to nearest airport and put in your destination. Then the 3rd or 4th page will list runway/approach-all of which expand into list you can pick from. These are the approaches/fixes in the ATC menus.TW I used FS9 for a couple of years before I found them. I can use them with the PMDG 737-800 and stay on LNAV right down to ILS intercept. In fact that sucker will autoland too-if you want you only have to pull the reversers manually-everything else is automatic.Hope that helps.DanS

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