Approach flaps setting sequence

[Driver170 42]

This is for Matt C think i'll be ditching ryanairs SOPs lol

 

The pilot i'm speaking to said this,

 

well, it's RYR, what do you expect Consider that they usually fly to quiet airports where ATC doesn't bother you usually, in actual airline ops 4NM is way too late. At 4NM you have to have landing flaps set and shouldn't be flying faster than VREF plus 15... I would recommend 2000 AGL for gear and flaps, and landing flaps at 1500. My former companies all required us to be stabilized (final config, on speed and path) at 1000 AGL, as you said with tailwind or a heavy bird you may need to configure even earlier in the 737....

[Spin737 102]

This is for Matt C think i'll be ditching ryanairs SOPs lol

 

The pilot i'm speaking to said this,

 

well, it's RYR, what do you expect Consider that they usually fly to quiet airports where ATC doesn't bother you usually, in actual airline ops 4NM is way too late. At 4NM you have to have landing flaps set and shouldn't be flying faster than VREF plus 15... I would recommend 2000 AGL for gear and flaps, and landing flaps at 1500. My former companies all required us to be stabilized (final config, on speed and path) at 1000 AGL, as you said with tailwind or a heavy bird you may need to configure even earlier in the 737....

This sounds much better.

[Driver170 42]

Yeh alot better, but i did mention this won't match up with the Boeing standard ILS procedure?

[Spin737 102]

Yeh alot better, but i did mention this won't match up with the Boeing standard ILS procedure?

If you're afraid of not matching the Boeing procedure, why not just use the Boeing procedure?

 

Don't bust limitations or fly unsafely. Otherwise these are guidelines. Don't sweat the little stuff.

[Driver170 42]

Matt i'm reading the FCTM and on this section at the start

 

Maneuver Margins to Stick Shaker- Flap Retraction/extendion diagram

 

I'm finding it kinda confusing on how to read it and use it? Especially the bank angle part. Anychance with a little help...

[Spin737 102]

Matt i'm reading the FCTM and on this section at the start

 

Maneuver Margins to Stick Shaker- Flap Retraction/extendion diagram

 

I'm finding it kinda confusing on how to read it and use it? Especially the bank angle part. Anychance with a little help...

That chart isn't very useful. It's simply telling you that as you retract the flaps on departure, you'll be cycling closer to and farther from the stick shaker.

 

We probably don't follow that line very closely in actuality. The flaps don't go from one position to the next instaneously. And as we climb, we are normally accelerating.

 

If you imagine that chart like some video game and you're driving up the peaks really fast. You don't fall straight down the other side - you kinda go from the peak and glide a bit to somewhere on the next hill.

 

But I'd say most pilots don't even look at that chart. Just follow the flap retraction schedule.

 

This is what I'd consider "nice to know," not "need to know."

[Driver170 42]

That chart isn't very useful. It's simply telling you that as you retract the flaps on departure, you'll be cycling closer to and farther from the stick shaker.

 

We probably don't follow that line very closely in actuality. The flaps don't go from one position to the next instaneously. And as we climb, we are normally accelerating.

 

If you imagine that chart like some video game and you're driving up the peaks really fast. You don't fall straight down the other side - you kinda go from the peak and glide a bit to somewhere on the next hill.

 

But I'd say most pilots don't even look at that chart. Just follow the flap retraction schedule.

 

This is what I'd consider "nice to know," not "need to know."

 

 

Yeh nice to know, not need to know

 

I know what the white bug is - V2 + 15, but what is the white bug when landing - vref + 15 is it the same as V2 + 15

[G-CIVA 62]

For all the naysayers (Matt C not included) ... its not RYR but a Canadian operator ... watch & learn ...

 

http://youtu.be/A8c_q5bRB6k

 

Yes you saw it right there  ... ILS24R @ YUL ... 170 kts from ATC until VOLAX & final landing flap (FLAP 30) when passing approximately 1300 RA ... it can be done & is done regularly & safely.

 

On the ND that looks like approximately 3 DME from the RWY.

 

The best brakes on the aircraft are the big metal & rubber things that can hang down underneath if you pull the big lever on the dashboard.

 

They safely achieve the Boeing (& RYR incidentally) 1000ft aal 'Stabilised' criteria as laid down in the Boeing 737 NG FCOM.

 

Stop slagging off the likes of RYR whose FCOM, FCTM & QRH are in effect facsimiles of the Boeing original - which all PMDG NGX drivers have.

 

RYR flew in excess of 80 (EIGHTY) million passengers around Europe last year & since commencing operations in the mid 1980's they have had NO fatalities & experienced only one hull loss due to a double engine failure on approach to CIA caused by a multiple bird strike.  That's a pretty good safety record despite the adverse media attention they receive.

 

RYR flight deck crew come from pretty much every corner of Europe & are able to operate to a single common language & set of SOPs safely hundreds of times each & every day into not just quiet remote but also large & very busy European Airports.

 

It's rocket science.

[G-CIVA 62]

More 'rocket science' & in all probability this time one of those 'reckless' Ryanair (please note the correct spelling) crews we hear so much about ....

 

http://youtu.be/BrsHUmFd1yc

 

Approach Flown into FUE with the ND set up with 10 & 4 NM circle around the RWY on the FIX page for a Visual to RWY01 which then turns into a radar vector by ATC.

 

Note the stabilised nature of the approach, Landing Gear & FLAP 15 at the 4NM circle from the RWY & FLAP 30 shortly thereafter (passing 1250ft RA) to comply with the 1000ft aal stabilised approach 'gate' or criteria as recommended by Mr Boeing.

 

A substantial amount without the AP & A/T too .... imagine that .... how 'reckless' of them to keep up their hand flying skills too.

[Driver170 42]

Love the videos kinda like my approaches makes me wanna do a flight now

 

More 'rocket science' & in all probability this time one of those 'reckless' Ryanair (please note the correct spelling) crews we hear so much about ....

 

http://youtu.be/BrsHUmFd1yc

 

Approach Flown into FUE with the ND set up with 10 & 4 NM circle around the RWY on the FIX page for a Visual to RWY01 which then turns into a radar vector by ATC.

 

Note the stabilised nature of the approach, Landing Gear & FLAP 15 at the 4NM circle from the RWY & FLAP 30 shortly thereafter (passing 1250ft RA) to comply with the 1000ft aal stabilised approach 'gate' or criteria as recommended by Mr Boeing.

 

A substantial amount without the AP & A/T too .... imagine that .... how 'reckless' of them to keep up their hand flying skills too.

 

 

This is the topic i'm speaking about and the procedures i do in the FCOM

love how they use direct INTC on base

landing with 3 tonnes of fuel they'll be burning more fuel with that extra tonne. but who am i to say lol

nicely done stabilized by 1000 aal

they did have a nice 17 kt HW though so that made the 4nm flaps 15 gear down

[G-CIVA 62]

 

they did have a nice 17 kt HW though so that made the 4nm flaps 15 gear down

 

Without sounding too critical this is where you start splitting hairs & you 'go off at the half cock' looking for things that are not there & seemingly ignoring the blindingly obvious... elsewhere others are also talking to you about this.

 

They are simply following their company SOP, as they always do unless they have an abnormal scenario or event to deal with - in which case they configure earlier (in the case of a tailwind component), or they refer to their QRH.  The guy who made the video has made several others & you can clearly observe the SOPs that the airline in question use on both the departure & in the approach/landing phases.

 

To suggest that it was simply the presence of a 17kt HWC that enabled them to make the 4NM Gear Down/F15 & 1000ft aal Stabilised 'gate' is simply incorrect (what you sound like you are implying).

 

I am done for another year.

 

Happy Flighting.

[FleaJump 7]

Here is the fine detail of my flap schedule, to which I adhere with religious zeal, since fear of the red bricks is the beginning of wisdom.

 

1.  Red bricks creeping up the speed tape from below, extend flaps incrementally, speed up, or pitch down.

 

2.  Red bricks creeping down the speed tape from above, or retract flaps, or slow down, or pitch up. 

 

 

3.  UFO squadron observed inbound at 3 o'clock, put the rest of the beers away until the bogeys de-materialize.

 

 

Sorry fellas, for some reason I couldn't resist posting this abbreviated unofficial FCOM extract.

[Spin737 102]

For all the naysayers (Matt C not included) ... its not RYR but a Canadian operator ... watch & learn ...

 

http://youtu.be/A8c_q5bRB6k

 

Yes you saw it right there  ... ILS24R @ YUL ... 170 kts from ATC until VOLAX & final landing flap (FLAP 30) when passing approximately 1300 RA ... it can be done & is done regularly & safely.

 

On the ND that looks like approximately 3 DME from the RWY.

 

The best brakes on the aircraft are the big metal & rubber things that can hang down underneath if you pull the big lever on the dashboard.

 

They safely achieve the Boeing (& RYR incidentally) 1000ft aal 'Stabilised' criteria as laid down in the Boeing 737 NG FCOM.

 

Stop slagging off the likes of RYR whose FCOM, FCTM & QRH are in effect facsimiles of the Boeing original - which all PMDG NGX drivers have.

 

RYR flew in excess of 80 (EIGHTY) million passengers around Europe last year & since commencing operations in the mid 1980's they have had NO fatalities & experienced only one hull loss due to a double engine failure on approach to CIA caused by a multiple bird strike.  That's a pretty good safety record despite the adverse media attention they receive.

 

RYR flight deck crew come from pretty much every corner of Europe & are able to operate to a single common language & set of SOPs safely hundreds of times each & every day into not just quiet remote but also large & very busy European Airports.

 

It's rocket science.

 

I've read some of the anti-Ryanair rhetoric on PPRUNE, etc. I can't really comment on that.

 

Some reasons why I wouldn't wait as long as the Ryanair video:

 

• We must use F25 on approach. I don't know why. I've lobbied against it, but it's there.
• We stop at each flap selection. We can't go from F15 to F30 or F15 to F40. It's F15-F25-F30-F40.
• We can't use speedbrakes with any flaps. You can't be F10 w/SB if you're fast.
• We are to be configured by 1000' - not sure if Ryanair is.
• A lot of pilots will talk on the radio before they follow configuration commands. If I asked for landing flaps the same time as the landing clearance came, too many pilots will talk on the radio first. GRRRR!
• We have 4 fleet types. Really I'd consider it 7 since the -800W, -800SFP -900, -900W and -900ER behave differently. 4.0DME might work that morning on a light -900ER but a -900 or a -400 or a -700 will be different.
• I flew fow KAL which was FOQA crazy. Punitive. They couldn't use "judgement" and were configured very early. I think that might make me configure a bit earlier than some at my airline, but I don't think so.

[Driver170 42]

Some reasons why I wouldn't wait as long as the Ryanair video:

 

Thats i mentioned it helped with a 17 kt HW or whatever component. What do you think?

 

You have gone through alot of SOPs in your time i bet matt. Maybe you should design a 737 NGX SOPs for us to follow?

[Spin737 102]

 

 

Maybe you should design a 737 NGX SOPs for us to follow?

 

Ooooh! I could be the Fleet Captain I've always wanted to be! I wouldn't have to run things by the Training Department or Engineering or Compliance. Heck, I could be those, too!

 

One question: How much does this position pay?