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Jimmy Helton

NO AUTOLAND Message

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Hello Fellow Pilots (virtual and actual):

 

The PMDG 737 is truly a complicated jet, and it continues to challenge me.  I've been having a very difficult time getting the Fail Operational autoland to work correctly. Everything proceeds as it should until 500 radio at which point NO AUTOLAND appears on the HGS and eventually the A/P automatically disengages before touchdown. However, jet retains A/T control, idols the engines on flare and deploys brakes and spoilers on touchdown. All I have to do is manually finish the approach, flare the jet, and add reverse thrust if needed. Still, I can't get the jet to finish the autoland for reasons unknown to me.

Both CMD A and B are engaged and green, and the amber SINGLE CH is displayed in the PFD down the glideslope.  At 1500 radio, this should be replaced by LAND 3 but it never is. I have done some extensive research into what could cause the jet to do this and have come up with only two conclusions: the second autopilot is engaged but not functioning properly, or NAV 2 is not set to the proper frequency of the ILS. Since both NAV radios are set to the same frequency, we can rule that out. Here is what I found in the manuals:

From FCOM V.2:

500 Feet Radio Altitude[Option – Fail-Operational Autoland]The pilot is required to check for the presence of LAND 3 or LAND 2 in order to continue the autoland. If the second autopilot in CMD remains armed and does not engage, LAND 2 or LAND 3 does not annunciate. Instead, the amber NO AUTOLAND annunciation alerts the pilot that dual control has not been established and the autoland is to be discontinued.

NO AUTOLAND – the system is not capable of performing an automatic landing. A system failure has occurred above Alert Height, and an amber NO AUTOLAND status annunciation appears on the Capt and F/O outboard display unit.

From Tutorial One:

 In the event you wanted to do a normal CAT I-style ILS approach
where you don’t autoland, you would just tune one radio to the
ILS frequency. When you engage both autopilots in this case,
you’ll see SINGLE CH annunciated on the PFD in amber, letting
you know that you do not have dual autopilot redundancy and
can’t perform an autoland. In this case you’d disconnect the AP
at the decision height and land manually.

 

So, I think we can conclude that I do not have duel autopilot redundancy, but I'm at a loss as to what might cause CMD B to arm but not engage. I also do not know if I should be getting the amber SINGLE CH instead of the green CMD down the glideslope.   After capturing the localizer, I arm CMD B as soon as the G/S capture indicator in the PFD turns from white to green and well above 800 AGL.  I might also add that it only seems to happen in the add-on liveries, not the house PMDG, even though fail operational is selected and saved. I have been able to autoland just fine following tutorial no. 2 on the house PMDG.

 

Assuming it's not a software issue, does anybody know the internal workings of the jet well enough to trouble shoot this problem with me?   I know a real NGX pilot for Southwest, but they don't autoland, so I can't really ask him.
 

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Both CMD A and B are engaged and green, and the amber SINGLE CH is displayed in the PFD down the glideslope.  At 1500 radio, this should be replaced by LAND 3 but it never is

 

I "upgraded" the Transavia Livery with autoland, just used the exact same settings from the PMDG one.

 

Works. Exact same behavior...

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Exact same behavior as what?  The only difference in my livery settings from the house PMDG is that I enable the short field takeoff package.  Otherwise, the settings are identical.

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Exact same behavior as what?  The only difference in my livery settings from the house PMDG is that I enable the short field takeoff package.  Otherwise, the settings are identical.

 

I get LAND3, and it does its thing.

The relevant stuff from the ini file:

 

[Displays]
Glass_PFD_ND=1
PFD_low_airspeed_alert=1
PFD_groundspeed_displayed=1
PFD_Vref_plus_20_bug=1
PFD_100knot_bug=0
PFD_rising_runway=1
PFD_split_axis_flight_director=1
PFD_pitch_limit_indicator_popup=1
PFD_radio_altitude_round_dial=0
PFD_angle_of_attack_dial=0
PFD_landing_altitude_bar=1
PFD_2500_height_alert=1
PFD_show_landing_flaps=0
PFD_integral_heading_scale=1
EFISMAP_radio_altitude_round_dial=0
EFISMAP_80knot_bug=0
EFISMAP_flight_path_vector=0
ND_trackUp=0
ND_VOR_course_lines_displayed=1
ND_VerticalSituationDisplay=1
ND_RangeArcs=1
ND_TCAS_RangeRing=0
ND_ActWptData=1
PFD_ND_NPS=0
Engines_SideBySideDisplay=0
Engines_ColorChangeInhibit_5minutes=0
Engines_ColorChangeInhibit_10minutes=0
Engines_LowOilQuantityInverseVideo=1
Engines_HighVibrationAlert=1
Engines_ShowRefN1=2
Engines_ShowOilQPercentage=0
Engines_ShowMaxContLines=1
Fuel_LowAlertBelow1000lbs=0
Fuel_TOTALDisplay=1
MFD_FlightControlSurfacesIndicator=1
MFD_BrakeTemperatureIndicator=1
[Engines]
Engines_DoubleDerate=1
[MCP]
MCPType=1
[AFS]
WingsLevelatTO=0
AllowGSCaptureBeforeLoc=0
RollOutEnabled=1
[FMS]
DefaultAccelHeight=1500
DefaultReductionAlt=1500
DefaultCutBackAlt=800
DefaultRestoreAlt=3000
DefaultTransAlt=3000
[GPWS]
GPWS_AltCallouts=1
GPWS_2500_RA=0
GPWS_2500=0
GPWS_1000=1
GPWS_500=1
GPWS_400=0
GPWS_300=0
GPWS_200=0
GPWS_100=1
GPWS_50=1
GPWS_40=1
GPWS_30=1
GPWS_20=1
GPWS_10=1
GPWS_MinimumsType=1
GPWS_AprMinimumsType=4
GPWS_WarnBankAngle=1
GPWS_TerrPeaksMode=1
GPWS_TerrUseCyan=0
GPWS_V1Callout=1
[TCAS]
TCAS_ShowAllTraffic=1
TCAS_FilterRange=40
TCAS_FilterSeparation=2800
[Airframe]
Airstair=0
ShortFieldPackage=0
FlightTestPackage=0
SteelBrakePackage=1
DualBatteryPackage=1
JumpSeat=1
Yoke CheckList L=1
Yoke CheckList R=1
ETOPS=0
DualCargoBottleSystem=1
SingleClassCabin=1
EyebrowWindows=0
SatcomAntenna=0
ISFDInstalled=1
HGSInstalled=1
HGS_AutoAIII=1
HGS_GSrefInPRI=1

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Tony, I'm happy that LAND3 works for you. The issue is why it doesn't work for me. :) Searching the forurm, this is a well documented problem that has been posted over and over going back to 2011, and following up on most of the posts there have been no solutions offered other than setting the failure mode to fail-operational, which I have.  I noticed that your TO/GA setting is heading select instead of wings level.  Here is my .ini for Southwest and my .ini for the default.

 

 

Southwest

 

[Displays]
Glass_PFD_ND=1
PFD_low_airspeed_alert=1
PFD_groundspeed_displayed=1
PFD_Vref_plus_20_bug=1
PFD_100knot_bug=0
PFD_rising_runway=1
PFD_split_axis_flight_director=1
PFD_pitch_limit_indicator_popup=1
PFD_radio_altitude_round_dial=0
PFD_angle_of_attack_dial=1
PFD_landing_altitude_bar=1
PFD_2500_height_alert=1
PFD_show_landing_flaps=1
PFD_integral_heading_scale=1
EFISMAP_radio_altitude_round_dial=1
EFISMAP_80knot_bug=1
EFISMAP_flight_path_vector=1
ND_trackUp=1
ND_VOR_course_lines_displayed=1
ND_VerticalSituationDisplay=1
ND_RangeArcs=1
ND_TCAS_RangeRing=1
ND_ActWptData=1
PFD_ND_NPS=1
Engines_SideBySideDisplay=0
Engines_ColorChangeInhibit_5minutes=0
Engines_ColorChangeInhibit_10minutes=0
Engines_LowOilQuantityInverseVideo=1
Engines_HighVibrationAlert=1
Engines_ShowRefN1=2
Engines_ShowOilQPercentage=1
Engines_ShowMaxContLines=1
Fuel_LowAlertBelow1000lbs=0
Fuel_TOTALDisplay=1
MFD_FlightControlSurfacesIndicator=1
MFD_BrakeTemperatureIndicator=1
[Engines]
Engines_DoubleDerate=1
[MCP]
MCPType=1
[AFS]
WingsLevelatTO=1
AllowGSCaptureBeforeLoc=0
RollOutEnabled=1
[FMS]
DefaultAccelHeight=1500
DefaultReductionAlt=1500
DefaultCutBackAlt=800
DefaultRestoreAlt=3000
DefaultTransAlt=18000
[GPWS]
GPWS_AltCallouts=1
GPWS_2500_RA=0
GPWS_2500=0
GPWS_1000=1
GPWS_500=1
GPWS_400=0
GPWS_300=1
GPWS_200=0
GPWS_100=1
GPWS_50=1
GPWS_40=1
GPWS_30=1
GPWS_20=1
GPWS_10=1
GPWS_MinimumsType=1
GPWS_AprMinimumsType=4
GPWS_WarnBankAngle=1
GPWS_TerrPeaksMode=1
GPWS_TerrUseCyan=1
GPWS_V1Callout=1
[TCAS]
TCAS_ShowAllTraffic=0
TCAS_FilterRange=40
TCAS_FilterSeparation=2800
[Airframe]
Airstair=1
ShortFieldPackage=1
FlightTestPackage=0
SteelBrakePackage=1
DualBatteryPackage=1
JumpSeat=1
Yoke CheckList L=1
Yoke CheckList R=1
ETOPS=1
DualCargoBottleSystem=1
SingleClassCabin=1
EyebrowWindows=0
SatcomAntenna=2
ISFDInstalled=1
HGSInstalled=1
HGS_AutoAIII=1
HGS_GSrefInPRI=1
[units]
MetricWeightUnits=0
[Version]
Version=1
AccurateOptions=1

 

Default

 

[Displays]
Glass_PFD_ND=1
PFD_low_airspeed_alert=1
PFD_groundspeed_displayed=1
PFD_Vref_plus_20_bug=1
PFD_100knot_bug=1
PFD_rising_runway=1
PFD_split_axis_flight_director=1
PFD_pitch_limit_indicator_popup=1
PFD_radio_altitude_round_dial=0
PFD_angle_of_attack_dial=1
PFD_landing_altitude_bar=1
PFD_2500_height_alert=1
PFD_show_landing_flaps=1
PFD_integral_heading_scale=1
EFISMAP_radio_altitude_round_dial=1
EFISMAP_80knot_bug=1
EFISMAP_flight_path_vector=1
ND_trackUp=1
ND_VOR_course_lines_displayed=1
ND_VerticalSituationDisplay=1
ND_RangeArcs=1
ND_TCAS_RangeRing=1
ND_ActWptData=1
PFD_ND_NPS=1
Engines_SideBySideDisplay=0
Engines_ColorChangeInhibit_5minutes=0
Engines_ColorChangeInhibit_10minutes=0
Engines_LowOilQuantityInverseVideo=1
Engines_HighVibrationAlert=1
Engines_ShowRefN1=2
Engines_ShowOilQPercentage=1
Engines_ShowMaxContLines=1
Fuel_LowAlertBelow1000lbs=0
Fuel_TOTALDisplay=1
MFD_FlightControlSurfacesIndicator=1
MFD_BrakeTemperatureIndicator=1
[Engines]
Engines_DoubleDerate=1
[MCP]
MCPType=1
[AFS]
WingsLevelatTO=1
AllowGSCaptureBeforeLoc=0
RollOutEnabled=1
[FMS]
DefaultAccelHeight=1500
DefaultReductionAlt=1500
DefaultCutBackAlt=800
DefaultRestoreAlt=3000
DefaultTransAlt=18000
[GPWS]
GPWS_AltCallouts=1
GPWS_2500_RA=0
GPWS_2500=1
GPWS_1000=1
GPWS_500=2
GPWS_400=0
GPWS_300=0
GPWS_200=0
GPWS_100=1
GPWS_50=1
GPWS_40=1
GPWS_30=1
GPWS_20=1
GPWS_10=1
GPWS_MinimumsType=1
GPWS_AprMinimumsType=4
GPWS_WarnBankAngle=1
GPWS_TerrPeaksMode=1
GPWS_TerrUseCyan=1
GPWS_V1Callout=1
[TCAS]
TCAS_ShowAllTraffic=0
TCAS_FilterRange=40
TCAS_FilterSeparation=2800
[Airframe]
Airstair=1
ShortFieldPackage=0
FlightTestPackage=0
SteelBrakePackage=1
DualBatteryPackage=1
JumpSeat=1
Yoke CheckList L=1
Yoke CheckList R=1
ETOPS=1
DualCargoBottleSystem=1
SingleClassCabin=0
EyebrowWindows=0
SatcomAntenna=0
ISFDInstalled=1
HGSInstalled=1
HGS_AutoAIII=1
HGS_GSrefInPRI=1
[units]
MetricWeightUnits=0
 

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Tony, I'm happy that LAND3 works for you. The issue is why it doesn't work for me. :)

 

I kinda guessed that :Tounge: , hence. Got it working? 

 

Maybe you have to load a "fresh situation" after changing the settings.... There are some unfortunate oddities with loading and reloading saved situations.... 

  • Upvote 1

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Tony, I'm happy that LAND3 works for you. The issue is why it doesn't work for me. :) Searching the forurm, this is a well documented problem that has been posted over and over going back to 2011, and following up on most of the posts there have been no solutions offered other than setting the failure mode to fail-operational, which I have. I noticed that your TO/GA setting is heading select instead of wings level. Here is my .ini for Southwest and my .ini for the default.

That's very odd, because selecting the Fail Operational option is what enables LAND 3 and ROLLOUT annunciations for me. People may have assumed that selecting the Collins MCP and the IFSD was enough to get Fail Operational. That may be why it crops up in the forum a lot. That clearly doesn't apply in your case though.

 

Are you using FSX-SE? I am, and some strange things happen to my NGX (and 777X) with third party liveries, so it might be worth raising a support ticket to get PMDG to look into this.

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Are you using FSX-SE? I am, and some strange things happen to my NGX (and 777X) with third party liveries, so it might be worth raising a support ticket to get PMDG to look into this.

 

I believe we've added some options into the .ini files over time (in the updates). If the repaint's .ini file is for an earlier version, that could cause oddities.

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I believe we've added some options into the .ini files over time (in the updates). If the repaint's .ini file is for an earlier version, that could cause oddities.

Quite possible. My FSX-SE suggestion may well be a red herring as in my case it affects the way liveries install, not how they work.

 

To be rule the status of the ini file out, the OP could use the PMDG config for the Southwest livery.

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I use legacy FSX upgraded to Acceleration on Windows 7.  I installed the NGX only a few months ago (maybe November), and have added any liveries and configured them only through the Operations Center. 

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Try loading the Southwest livery and then in CDU options use the PMDG default aircraft settings. If that fixes the autoland problem then it must be to do with the Southwest aircraft .ini file options.

 

Note PMDG use the N number to select the option file. If you changed the SWA livery N number in aircraft.cfg or in the FSX flight details screen it might not be picking up the options you think it should be.

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Kevin, you're suggestion worked.  Loading the Southwest livery and then selecting the default aircraft panel state fixed the problem.  I was able to successfully autoland and finally got the LAND 3 annunciation in the PDF and HGS.  However, I'm not sure where that leaves me.  The default panel state starts with engines on and most everything configured sans FMC.  I want to start cold and dark. You can compare my .ini files in the earlier post (default vs southwest but actually don't see a line for fail operational/fail passive).  I have not made any changes to aircraft tail numbers.  What's my best solution?  Should I save the aircraft back into the default panel and then re-save into cold and dark or would that even make a difference? When I download a new livery, it always starts cold and dark because that is how I saved my NGX to load.

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Jimmy,

 

The option in the .ini file called RollOutEnabled is set to 1 by the CDU option Fail Operational. The initial panel state is independent of livery. You can select your preferred panel state in the PMDG setup menu.

 

To ensure you have no N number changes you aren't aware of in the system use Explorer to open the following folder:

 

C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\FSX\simobjects\airplanes\PMDG 737-800NGX WL

 

Username being your login name on the PC. There will be a file in the folder called state.cfg. This records any changes you make in FSX to flight numbers, N numbers, etc. Delete it (the system will create a new one next time you load the NGX. Do the same for other NGX folders. Then FSX will load the sim with the N number defined in aircraft.cfg.

 

You may find having done that the SWA config will look at the right ini file and work correctly. If not you always have the option to load the default PMDG options and work from there.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kevin

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Kevin,

 

I made a second autoland attempt to collect more data.  In my previous attempt, I took off with the default panel state on the NGX with SWA livery and was able to autoland.  For my second attempt, I started with the default panel state, then I switched to cold & dark.  We know that staying in the default panel state fixes the issue.  The idea of the second attempt was to test if simply cycling through default would fix the issue.  After starting up the NGX and going through the same procedure on the same runway, the NGX would not autoland starting from cold & dark.  There must be something about the cold/dark state that is different from the default panel that is causing this to occur.  I would hate to have to start from default with my engines on every single time, because that is totally unrealistic.  Any ideas?

 

Jimmy

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Okay, what I have done is started with the default and then after doing an autoland made a new cold and dark file with the ngx about as shut down as most pilots would see in real life.  My understanding is that few airlines ever go completely cold and dark even after the last flight of the day.  I have made that new file my start panel state.

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Well, went to test my newly saved panel states and now have a new problem.  Engine 2 won't start up! Bleeds are on, ignition is set to both, and packs are off.  Fuel pumps are on.  Engine one starts per usual then after hitting GRD for engine 2 the valves open but absolutely no fuel flow!  N2 doesn't spool up at all.  I tried everything I could think of to fix it.  I'm not doing anything I haven't done a thousand times before.

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Okay, I accidently saved the panel states with the Isolation Valve off instead of open, so that explains Engine 2!  I will test my newly saved panel states tomorrow and report back, then I think we can mark this topic closed.  It still doesn't explain why the default cold and dark panel state won't do an autoland, but we have a sufficient workaround.

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RESULTS:  Oddly enough, after creating a new panel state from the default panel state, the NGX would not autoland, same as before.  The NGX only seems to autoland if you start with the default panel state with engines on. Since my instrument settings are the same for each landing, I can't think of what the difference would be that I'm overlooking.  There has to be a reason.  The NGX is a complex machine, and I'm not willing to write it off on software issue just yet.

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It autolands for a lot of people, so it must be something specific to your set up. I think the best thing would be to submit a support ticket and let PMDG look into it.

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Should I reference this thread in the support ticket?  Any advice on how to phrase it so they don't turn around and tell me to follow the tutorial? 

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Should I reference this thread in the support ticket?  Any advice on how to phrase it so they don't turn around and tell me to follow the tutorial? 

 

If you submit a ticket, we'd need specific steps to reproduce. Otherwise, all I can say is that you're likely not following the procedure outlined in the tutorial.

 

Also: I'm assuming your user name is your actual name, but full names are required in the body of the posts for consistency.

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I believe I've narrowed down the problem to the PMDG Operations Center.  The NGX is not recognizing any aircraft specific changes saved through the OC.  If I take any livery and then load the house PMDG tail number inside the cockpit, Land 3 works.  I'm sure this is because the house PMDG is set to fail operational.  I can also load any tail nail number from any livery and see that the cockpit doesn't match up at all to the "saved" livery specific settings in the Operations Center.

 

The OC is updated to the current version.

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