Anyone experienced with the FMC? Help with strange "waypoints".

[wipeout01 0]

Note for the forum moderator: This post was accidentally duplicated by me, due an internet failure in my connection. I am very sorry for this. This is the valid post, please, do not delete it. Just delete the other duplicated post.

You can find it here:

http://www.avsim.com/topic/486565-anyone-experienced-with-the-fmc-help-with-strange-waypoints/

 

Hi,

This is very strange, because I am programming my FMC to fly from Seville, LEZL to Barcelona, LEBL... I've selected as arrival the MATE1S arrival... in the STAR chart, and as approximation I am going to land in the Runway 07R with ILS. So I've selected that approach, 07R with ILS and as TRANSITION I've selected VLA.

When you are going to land in an ILS landing or a VOR/DME landing you have an approach divided in three segments. 1st. IAF - Initial Approach Fix. 2nd. IF - Intermediate Fix. 3rd - FAP (for ILS) or FAF (for VOR/DME landing). It stands for Final Approach Point or Final Approach Fix. It is the last segment of the approach.

So I am going to land in the runway 07R and I've selected the most convinient approach for me, which is the transition VLA. There are several ways in which you can enter the runway, so you can access the runway 07R from several ways, coming from the east, west, north, south... so the approximation to that runway have several IAFs.

I've selected the VLA transition, that is... the IAF that is closer to my actual route.

You can see this in this chart, perfectly painted, so you won't have any doubt at all...

 

Click here to see the chart:

https://carenado.zendesk.com/attachments/token/kxEtvTc69WQHLzV2UHWU4wdmK/?name=4+IAC-chart.jpg

 

Okay... so I did the FMC programming... and everything is fine... I see the transition perfectly shown... it show also the Intermediate Fix (IF), whose name is PERUK...

BUT!!!

I see two misterious waypoints? are waypoints? not listed in any chart... and I don't know what is this.

 

Are called...

FI07R

RW07R

 

What is this????

 

See it for yourself...

 

 

If you want to take a look to the video in which I am programming the FMC, here it is

 

Are just 7 minutes.

https://youtu.be/3r227wbmkRg

 

I've talked to the aircraft maker, in this case, Carenado, and they replied me back they don't know what is FI07R and RW07R because that data is provided by Navigraph?

 

Do you have any idea of what is FI07R and RW07R?

 

What is clear is that it is something related to runways... because I am going to land in the 07R runway... and I see 07R... but... FI? RW? FI07R? RW07R?

 

What is this? Any idea?

[Bobsk8 12,735]

Note for the forum moderator: This post was accidentally duplicated by me, due an internet failure in my connection. I am very sorry for this. This is the valid post, please, do not delete it. Just delete the other duplicated post.

You can find it here:

http://www.avsim.com/topic/486565-anyone-experienced-with-the-fmc-help-with-strange-waypoints/

 

Hi,

This is very strange, because I am programming my FMC to fly from Seville, LEZL to Barcelona, LEBL... I've selected as arrival the MATE1S arrival... in the STAR chart, and as approximation I am going to land in the Runway 07R with ILS. So I've selected that approach, 07R with ILS and as TRANSITION I've selected VLA.

When you are going to land in an ILS landing or a VOR/DME landing you have an approach divided in three segments. 1st. IAF - Initial Approach Fix. 2nd. IF - Intermediate Fix. 3rd - FAP (for ILS) or FAF (for VOR/DME landing). It stands for Final Approach Point or Final Approach Fix. It is the last segment of the approach.

So I am going to land in the runway 07R and I've selected the most convinient approach for me, which is the transition VLA. There are several ways in which you can enter the runway, so you can access the runway 07R from several ways, coming from the east, west, north, south... so the approximation to that runway have several IAFs.

I've selected the VLA transition, that is... the IAF that is closer to my actual route.

You can see this in this chart, perfectly painted, so you won't have any doubt at all...

 

Click here to see the chart:

https://carenado.zendesk.com/attachments/token/kxEtvTc69WQHLzV2UHWU4wdmK/?name=4+IAC-chart.jpg

 

Okay... so I did the FMC programming... and everything is fine... I see the transition perfectly shown... it show also the Intermediate Fix (IF), whose name is PERUK...

BUT!!!

I see two misterious waypoints? are waypoints? not listed in any chart... and I don't know what is this.

 

Are called...

FI07R

RW07R

 

What is this????

 

See it for yourself...

 

 

If you want to take a look to the video in which I am programming the FMC, here it is

 

Are just 7 minutes.

https://youtu.be/3r227wbmkRg

 

I've talked to the aircraft maker, in this case, Carenado, and they replied me back they don't know what is FI07R and RW07R because that data is provided by Navigraph?

 

Do you have any idea of what is FI07R and RW07R?

 

What is clear is that it is something related to runways... because I am going to land in the 07R runway... and I see 07R... but... FI? RW? FI07R? RW07R?

 

What is this? Any idea?

 

Where did you find these two waypoints to program into your FMC?   

[wipeout01 0]

I did not find them, when I selected the right approach, the FMC inserted them automatically.

I've selected as STAR the MATE1S, then I selected the approach to the runway 07R ILS... asked me what transition, and selected VLA, which is the closest transition to my route. Then, the FMC inserted all the waypoints... and also these two mysterious waypoints.

FI07R and RW07R

???

Any idea about what could be happening here?

[Glynn 405]

Yes, the Navigraph data is probably wrong which can happen.

Try posting on the Navigraph forum they may be able to help.

[wipeout01 0]

I've just registered the Navigraph forum 5 hours ago I think... they sent me a verification code, activated my account, but don't allow me to post anything in the forum. It says...

 

In order to post in this part of the forum you need to
1) be a registered Navigraph User,
2) have purchased a product or service relating to this particular part of the forum. I.e. you need to purchase FMS Data in order to gain access to the FMS Data forum.

N.B. If you have just registered or purchased our product(s), please wait a few mintues until your permission is updated.

 

5 hours I've been waiting and nothing...

[RamonB 449]

Are called...

 

FI07R

RW07R

 

What is this????

 

 

The following two-character codes are to be added to the runway

identifier to create an airport-related waypoint identifier when no named

waypoint has been established by the government source for the fix type:

 

Fx = Final Approach Fix, where "x" equals the Type of procedure in question

 

See this PDF document Name Conventions Waypoint Identifiers

 

From what I can see in your FMS pic and chart. (info from your chart)

  

FI07R    Unnamed Fix for Runway 07R,  ACL alt 1677 ft, 5 nm from RWY 07R (66°)

RW07R is Runway 07R (66°)

 

From your chart. If Missed approach Fly climb heading 66° to (500) ft,   then right turning 229° to intercept R-179 PRA climbing to 3000 ft.......

[stephendoc 30]

I've just registered the Navigraph forum 5 hours ago I think... they sent me a verification code, activated my account, but don't allow me to post anything in the forum. It says...

 

In order to post in this part of the forum you need to

1) be a registered Navigraph User,

2) have purchased a product or service relating to this particular part of the forum. I.e. you need to purchase FMS Data in order to gain access to the FMS Data forum.

 

N.B. If you have just registered or purchased our product(s), please wait a few mintues until your permission is updated.

 

5 hours I've been waiting and nothing...

 

Just to clarify: You need to subscribe to Navigraph FMS Data to post in the Navigraph FMS Data support forum (see bullet 2). Use the other forum called "Pre-purchase questions" if you aren't a subscriber yet, it is open to all users.

[Alpha Floor 237]

FI07R is the Final Approach Fix for the approach into runway 07R. You can see it's 5 nm from the runway, that's probably the latest point at which you're supposed to intercept the glideslope to the runway when flying an ILS approach. The actual point where you do intercept the glideslope when following the Instrument Approach Chart is called a Final Approach Point. FAP and FAF are similar concepts but not really the sam.

 

RW07R is the Runway Threshold

 

 

These waypoints are automatically put in by the selected approach in the ARR/DEP page. Some approaches will also put in a Intermediate Approach Fix (IF).

 

For more info read this (an IVAO training document regarding instrument approaches and their segments)

 

EDIT: I've had a look on the chart. You can see there's a point 5 nm out of the runway with an altitude of 1677. That's your "FI07R". It's there for reference so you can know when given an intercept heading under ATC vectors how far out from the runway you will intercept the LOC.

 

Also read this

[RamonB 449]

Just to clarify Jaime's post and my previous one.

 

From ARINC 424 name and coding conventions. CNF codes.

 

In your case Barcelona RWY 076 has more than one approach procedure.

So the CNF identifier is made up of 2 characters First one is Waypoint type, Second one is Procedure Type

 

FI07R  = F (Final Approach Fix) + I (ILs Approach) + 07R (Runway)  ACL (at 5 nm 1677 ft) 

RW07R = As Jaime stated is the Runway Threshold, in this case 62' TCH (54' for TCH + 8' Runway Elevation)

 

ACL = Altimeter Check Location.

TCH = Threshold Crossing Height

[wipeout01 0]

This forum is a jewel. The quality and quantity of information you find here, is amazing.

Thanks a lot to everyone for this information really helpful.

I want to remind what stephendoc said, to post in the navigraph forum you have to register and write in the Pre-Purchase forum, that can be found here:

https://www.navigraph.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=54

 

Kabronicus and Alpha Floor, fantastic information. Thanks a lot.

 

FI07R  = F (Final Approach Fix) + I (ILs Approach) + 07R (Runway)  ACL (at 5 nm 1677 ft) 

RW07R = As Jaime stated is the Runway Threshold, in this case 62' TCH (54' for TCH + 8' Runway Elevation)

 

ACL = Altimeter Check Location.

TCH = Threshold Crossing Height

 

So I guess those are CNF codes, which first state the waypoint and second the procedure. F (Final Approach Fix) + I (ILS)

Crystal clear !

 

Just to put clear, what is the runway threshold... we can see it in this picture.

 

 

Regarding the approach segments... I want to clarify that at least, in the Spanish charts provided from AENA they differentiate very well in the segments for a VOR/DME approach and an ILS approach.

 

In the case of a VOR/DME approach, the segments are three:

IAF - Initial Approach Fix (1st segment)

IF  - Intermediate Fix (2nd segment)

FAF - Final Approach Fix (3rd and last segment)

 

In the case of an ILS approach, the segments are three:

IAF - Initial Approach Fix (1st segment)

IF  - Intermediate Fix (2nd segment)

FAP - Final Approach Point (3rd and last segment)

 

I really don't know if outside Spain other sources catalog the information in the same fashion for the approach segments, but at least, in Spain is this way.