747-400F range spec option?

[phil747fan 14]

Michael,

 

are you using the beta version of the PMDG or the previous version?

 

if this is the previous version did you check in a performance manual what are the perf data?

 

which profile of PFPX are you using?

 

what is your final report on fuel and flight time?

 

Phil

[pcubine 143]

Michael,

 

are you using the beta version of the PMDG or the previous version?

 

if this is the previous version did you check in a performance manual what are the perf data?

 

which profile of PFPX are you using?

 

what is your final report on fuel and flight time?

 

Phil

Phil

 

1) Beta version.

 

2) It should not make any difference if this is a previous version or not. A 747 is a 747 whether it is 10 years old or about to be released. The performance w ill still be the same. Check performance manuals. That's what PFPX and the FMC are for.

 

3) Profile is by FlyPrecisely.

 

4) No I did not.

 

As aside VHHH-KLAX I am doing in the 777F. PFPX recommends initial cruise of FL310. FMC comes up with FL290 with the step climb to FL310 1100 miles away.

[phil747fan 14]

Michael,

 

i created a profile in lbs for you using the one coming from pfpx and certainly with Doug perf.

 

if you look my numbers they are not  exactly like yours but i took your route and fuel that you took ...

 

now the max climb thrust weight for a 747-400f in lbs with up to isa+10 is 39200 with bank angle 1.2 or 33 degrees for 680000 lbs opt is34800 for 720000 lbs we got max 38000 and opt 33600.th

 

it is real number not the fmc nor pfpx and i think you have to understand the planning of a flight. using max or close to instead of opt will give you only plus 1% of fuel burning so unless you are close to the red band this is not an issue especially in the sim world ...fmc is not to be used for flightplanning even if some are promoting it ....

 

1) check with the team if they input the 400F data for fmc programmation or what kind of data they used ...

 

2) oh yes it matters because in the past pmdg used one kind of perf the 747-400 ge pax for all versions and i can t tell you for what you are testing. the difference on fuel burn was around 10% more than the real number, maybe flight simulator envelope ...  

 

3) maybe an issue there can you try with different profiles from pfpx and post your finding or pm if you prefer then we can investigate where the issue is?

 

4) the numbers may have help you. so your next to do thing.

 

now on the real world planning the fppm is giving me the go to 38000 with 700000 granted that i will need 21 min 16900 lbs and 147 nm.

at  680000 the opt in the lrc chart is given to 35000 and 38000 is given also and this is not the max for boeing.

 

hope this help.

 

Phil

 

 

********************************************************************************
                    F O R   I N F O R M A T I O N   O N L Y
********************************************************************************
CARGOLUX FLIGHTPLAN - IFR  CLX5  MICHAEL  KLAX-PANC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL WEIGHTS IN POUNDS (LB)                                       STD 22JAN/0640Z
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFP 1 - PREPARED 22JAN/0621Z BY PHILIPPE PRAPROTNIK  

CLX5                MICHAEL/B747-400F CF6                 ROUTE:    KLAXPANC-MAN

DEP: KLAX/LAX 24L   ELEV   128 FT   COST INDEX: 110       TTL G/C DIST:  2038 NM
ARR: PANC/ANC 07L   ELEV   151 FT   INIT ALT:   FL360     TTL F/P DIST:  2078 NM
                                    FUEL BIAS:  0.0  %    TTL AIR DIST:  2125 NM
                                                          AVG WIND CMP: HD010 KT
ALT: PAEN/ENA 20R   ELEV   100 FT   56 NM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONFIG      DOW  PAX   CARGO   TOTAL   ULOAD LIM             ZFW     TOW     LDW
STANDARD 363983               204971   64446 LDW     MAX  634931  874999  666016
                                                     PLN  568954  702687  601570
                                                     ACT  ......  ......  ......

               FUEL    CORR    ENDUR
TRIP         101117  ........  04:28
10 PCT         8813  ........  00:27
ALTN PAEN      6291  ........  00:15
INTL HOLD      9834  ........  00:30
MIN T/O      126055  ........  05:40       .....................................
EXTRA          7678  ........  00:23       CAPTAINS SIGNATURE  (....)
TAXI           2000  ........  00:10       
RELEASE      135733  ........  06:13       I ACCEPT THIS OFP AND I AM FAMILIAR
                                           WITH THE PLANNED ROUTE AND AERODROMES


FUEL TANK CAP 361779 LB / MAX EXTRA FUEL 72124 LB LIM BY LDW
TRIP CORR FOR 15000 LB TOW INCR: +1793 LB / 15000 LB TOW DECR: -2258 LB
2000 FT LOWER:  -1203 LB / EET 04:28  CLB: 250/340/84  DES: 84/340/250

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KLAX  STD 06:40Z/22:40L  ETD 06:40Z  ACT OFBL ....  EST T/O 06:50Z  ACT T/O ....
PANC  STA 11:40Z/02:40L  ETA 11:23Z  ACT ONBL ....  EST LDG 11:18Z  ACT LDG ....
      SKD 05:00          PLN 04:43   TTL BLCK ....  EST FLT 04:28   TTL FLT ....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ATC ROUTE: N0493F360 FIXIT3 RZS J88 SNS J110 OAK/N0494F380 DCT BOXER B453 MDO
           YESKA6


ALTERNATE PLANNING
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALTN/RWY DIST ALT/FL MSA  COMP  TIME   FUEL   DIFF ROUTE
PAEN/20R   56  8000  100 HD001 00:15   6291      - TED V334 ENA


MOST CRITICAL MORA 11200 FT AT BOXER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AWY      WAYPOINT   MT    ALT MSA FREQ    TAS  LEG  FUEL REM / USED   LEG   ACC
-FIR     NAME                 ISA WND/SPD  GS  REM  POSITION          ETO / ATO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         KLAX/24L         128 045                      133.7 /   2.2            
         LOS ANGELES INTL                     2078  N3356.9 W11824.2 ...../.....

FIXIT3   DLREY     251   *CLB 045                3     130.5 /   5.4   03  00.03
                              M03 187/011     2075  N3356.6 W11827.9 ...../.....

FIXIT3   ENNEY     256   *CLB 045                2     130.1 /   5.8   00  00.03
                              M02 206/014     2073  N3356.5 W11830.0 ...../.....

FIXIT3   NAANC     252   *CLB 045                7     128.4 /   7.5   02  00.05
                              P04 264/042     2066  N3355.9 W11838.6 ...../.....

FIXIT3   MUELR     252   *CLB 045               11     126.4 /   9.5   02  00.07
                              P04 272/059     2055  N3354.8 W11851.9 ...../.....

FIXIT3   FIXIT     288   *CLB 045                7     125.3 /  10.6   01  00.08
                              P05 275/073     2048  N3358.4 W11859.2 ...../.....

FIXIT3   IKAYE     341   *CLB 111               10     124.1 /  11.8   02  00.10
                              P06 277/089     2038  N3408.5 W11900.6 ...../.....

FIXIT3   SCHOR     288   *CLB 111               20     121.7 /  14.3   03  00.13
                              P07 277/113     2018  N3418.7 W11921.4 ...../.....

FIXIT3   RZS       288   *CLB 111 114.90        24     119.3 /  16.6   03  00.16
         SAN MARCUS SANTA BAR P06 274/127     1994  N3430.5 W11946.2 ...../.....

         *TOC      313  FL360 111         493   16     117.9 /  17.9   03  00.19
                              P07 273/123 406 1978  N3443.5 W11956.9 ...../.....

J88      CEANO     313  FL360 111         493   47     115.2 /  20.5   06  00.25
                              P06 270/131 406 1932  N3522.1 W12029.2 ...../.....

J88      *BDRY     312  FL360 075         493   13     114.5 /  21.3   02  00.27
-KZOA                         P06 270/133 406 1918  N3533.1 W12038.5 ...../.....

J88      ROBIE     312  FL360 075         493   31     112.7 /  23.0   05  00.32
                              P06 267/136 405 1887  N3558.8 W12100.5 ...../.....

J88      GOALI     312  FL360 082         493   35     110.7 /  25.0   05  00.37
                              P06 265/140 406 1852  N3627.5 W12125.4 ...../.....

J88      SNS       311  FL360 082 117.30  493   15     109.9 /  25.8   03  00.40
         SALINAS              P06 264/141 407 1837  N3639.8 W12136.1 ...../.....

J110     OAK       322  FL360 082 116.80  492   70     106.2 /  29.5   09  00.49
         OAKLAND              P06 259/147 433 1766  N3743.5 W12213.4 ...../.....

J110     *BDRY     316  FL360 112         494  174      97.4 /  38.3   24  01.13
-KZSE                         P08 245/126 467 1592  N4013.4 W12407.0 ...../.....

         *CLB      314  FL380 074         494   36      95.6 /  40.1   05  01.18
                              P08 241/114 474 1556  N4044.1 W12431.5 ...../.....

DCT      BOXER     314  FL380 074         501  141      88.3 /  47.4   17  01.35
                              P11 235/077 498 1416  N4243.0 W12610.8 ...../.....

-------------------------------- OCEANIC ENTRY ---------------------------------

[ ] LR NAV ACCUR CHECK     AT __:__Z    CAPT _______   STBY _______   FO _______   
[ ] RVSM ALTIMETER CHECK   AT __:__Z    CAPT _______   STBY _______   FO _______   
[ ] COMPASS HDG CHECK      AT __:__Z    CAPT _______   STBY _______   FO _______   
[ ] HF CHECK               AT __:__Z    SIGNATURE  (....) ______________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B453     KYLLE     319  FL380 010         499   48      86.1 /  49.6   06  01.41
-KZAK                         P12 234/064 505 1368  N4326.4 W12639.4 ...../.....

---------------- CLASS II ENTRY 0241 NM BEFORE KANUA EET 01:46 -----------------

B453     KANUA     318  FL380 010         495  287      73.6 /  62.1   34  02.15
                              P10 207/035 514 1080  N4741.5 W12946.0 ...../.....

B453     VIDKU     315  FL380 010         495   37      72.0 /  63.7   04  02.19
                              P10 205/034 515 1044  N4813.6 W13011.9 ...../.....

B453     TAMRU     314  FL380 010         494   50      69.9 /  65.8   06  02.25
                              P09 203/033 514  994  N4857.3 W13048.1 ...../.....

B453     SIMLU     313  FL380 010         493   72      66.9 /  68.8   08  02.33
                              P08 199/030 513  922  N5000.3 W13142.6 ...../.....

B453     *BDRY     312  FL380 010         493    6      66.6 /  69.1   01  02.34
-CZVR                         P08 199/030 513  915  N5005.6 W13147.4 ...../.....

B453     KURTT     312  FL380 010         493    7      66.3 /  69.4   01  02.35
                              P08 198/029 513  908  N5011.9 W13153.0 ...../.....

B453     PETPA     310  FL380 010         493   57      63.9 /  71.8   06  02.41
                              P07 194/028 511  851  N5100.3 W13241.1 ...../.....

---------------- CLASS II EXIT  0063 NM BEFORE NAKBI EET 02:42 -----------------

B453     NAKBI     309  FL380 010         492   72      61.0 /  74.8   09  02.50
                              P07 190/025 510  779  N5200.3 W13343.9 ...../.....

B453     METPA     308  FL380 010         492   72      58.0 /  77.8   08  02.58
                              P07 188/023 509  707  N5300.3 W13450.2 ...../.....

---------------- CLASS II ENTRY 0013 NM BEFORE KATCH EET 03:05 -----------------

B453     KATCH     306  FL380 010         491   73      55.0 /  80.8   09  03.07
-PAZA                         P06 187/023 508  634  N5400.0 W13600.0 ...../.....

---------------- CLASS II EXIT  0385 NM BEFORE MDO   EET 03:17 -----------------

---------------- CLASS II ENTRY 0322 NM BEFORE MDO   EET 03:25 -----------------

---------------- CLASS II EXIT  0137 NM BEFORE MDO   EET 03:47 -----------------

B453     MDO       293  FL380 015 115.30  492  471      35.7 / 100.0   56  04.03
         MIDDLETON ISLAND     P07 216/023 493  163  N5925.3 W14621.0 ...../.....

         *TOD      308  FL380 015         492   24      34.7 / 101.0   03  04.06
                              P07 216/023 499  139  N5945.2 W14647.7 ...../.....

YESKA6   SOBGE     307   *DES 090               77      34.1 / 101.6   10  04.16
                              M17 178/022       61  N6048.5 W14817.1 ...../.....

YESKA6   YESKA     273   *DES 100               33      33.6 / 102.1   07  04.23
                              M17 153/004       29  N6100.0 W14920.0 ...../.....

YESKA6   TED       281    151 100 113.15  350   21      32.5 / 103.3   05  04.28
         ANCHORAGE            M25 002/006 362    8  N6110.0 W14957.6 ...../.....

YESKA6   PANC      271    151 100                8      32.6 / 103.1   00  04.28
         STEVENS ANCHORAGE IN                       N6110.4 W14959.8 ...../.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            
WIND INFORMATION - OBS 22/JAN 00:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CLIMB)             CEANO               OAK                 BOXER             
FL350  277/123 -48  FL400  269/120 -54  FL400  260/133 -53  FL420  237/068 -47
FL280  278/115 -33  FL380  270/128 -52  FL380  260/144 -52  FL400  237/074 -46
FL210  277/092 -20  FL360  271/131 -50  FL360  260/147 -50  FL380  236/077 -45
14000  269/059  -9  FL340  272/135 -47  FL340  259/151 -48  FL360  230/075 -46
 7000  235/023   0  FL320  272/130 -43  FL320  259/142 -44  FL340  224/073 -46

KANUA               SIMLU               NAKBI               KATCH             
FL420  214/034 -46  FL420  203/030 -47  FL420  196/026 -48  FL420  194/026 -49
FL400  211/036 -46  FL400  202/030 -47  FL400  193/025 -48  FL400  191/024 -49
FL380  208/036 -46  FL380  199/030 -48  FL380  190/025 -49  FL380  187/023 -51
FL360  199/032 -49  FL360  192/031 -51  FL360  187/027 -52  FL360  182/024 -52
FL340  188/029 -51  FL340  185/032 -54  FL340  185/029 -54  FL340  177/024 -54

(DESCENT)         
FL370  207/025 -50  
FL300  187/044 -55  
FL220  184/038 -46  
15000  183/025 -31  
 7000  177/011 -14


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
END FLIGHTPLAN 00465  CLX5   MICHAEL   KLAX-PANC   22JAN2017
 

[77west 139]

So, the beta version of what? The PFPX profile I assume?

[phil747fan 14]

Michael is talking about pmdg v3.

[77west 139]

Michael is talking about pmdg v3.

Which has not yet been released, if you mean the 747 v3. Which means we don't know how it compares to any profiles for PFPX etc... Much confuseness....  :blink:

[pcubine 143]

and certainly with Doug perf.

Phil

What do you mean by Doug perf.?

[phil747fan 14]

Phil

What do you mean by Doug perf.?

Doug Snow is the one that did most of the original Boeing profiles for PFPX.

 

again i do not know what Mikita used for his profiles but i know the tool Doug used and if there is an issue this is not from PFPX.

 

and i do not know what  perfs was used for the profile you used, my data are from boeing for the ge f engine.

 

i will try to find some tools to understand the planning of a 747 because it is the hardest to understand on the operation of that plane ....

 

enjoy the week end.

 

Phil

[pcubine 143]

again i do not know what Mikita used for his profiles but i know the tool Doug used and if there is an issue this is not from PFPX.

Leo Cal, an Avsim member said in a 777 thread "Furthermore, depending on what aircraft performance file you use. Be it PFPX's or FlyPrecisely's B777 aircraft performance files for PFPX (I prefer the latter as they were put together with the latest B777 FPPM and performance data). This will of course determine the OPT/MAX altitudes and accuracy release fuel for the trip." This was when I started using FlyPrecisely for the 777. For the 744 I don't know where Mikita got his figures.

[phil747fan 14]

Michael,

 

of the 777 i do not know which data has been used for the input into the fmc to create the fuel burn and the altitude opt/max.

 

what i know is when the profiles has been create Kyle used them and found them good for what they were doing while on beta testing phase again for the 777s.

 

the profiles created by Doug are not created by FPPM thus the confusion.

they are created with the new version of BPS (boeing performance software) as there is no CI charts in FPPM.

you can get the most precise performance data with this tool and they are used by airlines for the flightplanning side or the companies selling that service.

 

can we hear from different beta testers about that side on the 747-400 V3 versus PFPX and performance. i imagine you are not the only testing it ...

 

all the best.

 

Phil