Thanks for the replies.My original decision to post on this subject was to get feedback from others about this topic because, aside from a review of the DF B58 that I was directed to by a link on the DreamFleet Website, I couldn

>Thanks for the replies.>>My original decision to post on this subject was to get>feedback from others about this topic because, aside from a>review of the DF B58 that I was directed to by a link on the>DreamFleet Website, I couldn

Odd that this was Bob's first post and that he didn't elect to respond to my question to him...which was a request that he inform me of any light twin add-on that models slow flight characteristics any better than the DF Baron.But, for some reason, he did reply...not on this forum...but in a private e-mail to me. In response to my above question, he wrote:"I don't think one currently exists"I agree. Regards,Jim

RIGHT! And I am VERY critical of DF for not including in its Owner's Manual, the instructions for properly laundering one's Jockey shorts after spinning the thing during a botched VMC demo!!SHAME on you guys!(-:Jim

I am getting into this discussion late as I spent all yesterday flying from Michigan to Louisiana and back in my Baron.Interestingly enough-I also trained in a Duchess-then got my Baron which I now have 120 hours in. It has been a while since I flew the Duchess-but when I transitioned to the Baron I found it was quite different from the Duchess. (Don't ask for specifics-but it was like the handling and a ride of a low end economy car vs. a high end).I found FS very useful for training-I made a Duchess cockpit from photos of the one I was training in (sorry I don't have it anymore).I find the DF Baron a very credible rendition of a Baron-even though mine is a B55 which is sorely missing from the FS world.For me-it is procedures that make the sim valuable. I don't expect a flat screen image on a computer to feel 100% like the real thing. I can however, fail in an unexpected fashion an engine, do pitch, power, drag, identify, verify, feather-and have to do some type of input which is similar to the real thing. With the price of gasoline-very useful to do this on the sim.I can follow the checklist for securing an engine-at the same time maintaining my heading and altitude etc.Very valuable imho for training purposes.Is the DF Baron perfect-no-but it close enough that I can fill any errors in it with imagination from the real thing-and get some real practical use from it. One thing that I feel strongly about is that the controls we use are more of a problem then often the flight models. I have now a Baron throttle quad from a real plane-and I couldn't believe how much having this made my fs world more real. If we had a yoke/rudders that gave real control pressures (not force feedback which I find totally game like)-then these fm's would start to feel even more credible.Of course-the fm's can continue to improve also-but imho the controls are a bigger detriment right now.In any case-especially being a Baron driver now-the DF Baron is the closest you can get to reality now. I agree with Peter though-lets keep going ahead-on all aspects. :-)http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

GeoffWhen people say that MS designed the sim for Joe Bloggs in the street then yes they are right, The base programme was so designed.But look at some of the stuff coming out for MSFS. Reality XP creating some almost real GPS units. People like PMDG/ Level D and their superb push the boundaries renditions of aircraft which are head and shoulders above anything in the base programme.Joe Bloggs in the street wouldnt even know where to start. Yet all the superb addons whether they are Scenery, Airports, Aircraft etc are made by people who want realism and do not accept anything less.I am sure PMDG dont give a toss about Joe Bloggs. They design for themselves and the level of realism that they want and then offer that to the hardcore simmers who want the same.Control forces are a problem as well as control movement. Flare to land at slow speed and you will pull the column back several inches at slow speed.Try and pitch an aircraft from its trimmed cruise speed and you will get maybe a cm of movement and resistance.But controls aside the movements should show correct and they dont.Regardless of forces the ball should slip further out of its cage as the speed declines one engine out.Approaching VMCA and almost full rudder should be required to centre the ball.The same goes for all the other controls.The problem is the indications are not correct.People who design airports demand extreme accuracy and become very unhappy if a yellow line goes off the taxiway and through the grass.Look at the German scenery just released. Realise that in our world of MSFS Joe Bloggs doesnt figure and thank heavens for that. I for one want complete realism as do most in these forums including YOU :-)and I dont like yellow lines running through grass verges in flight dynamics ;-)Peter

Hi.Let

>Control forces are a problem as well as control movement. Flare to land at slow speed and you will pull the column back several inches at slow speed.Try and pitch an aircraft from its trimmed cruise speed and you will get maybe a cm of movement and resistance

>The truth is that this is a GAME and the only thing that I,>and any other self respecting Instructor, should only>recommend it for Navigation and Procedural use. There is not>much else in this program that comes close to real. I will not>elaborate, I am sure that real world pilots that have a real>good understanding of flight, instrument updates, visuals,>specific details of maneuvers, flight regimes etc. will agree.Nope..................Sometimes at certain moments, things just seem to feel real. Like the near perfect illusion of holding the airplane in a flare until the wheels touch. Use of throttle, aileron, rudder, and elevator just seemed to go together. Of course, it's a mind game and an illusion, yet sometimes, you just hit the sweeet spot. Even with default planes.L.Adamsonedit...... the "above" was thanks to VC's!

>Control forces are a problem as well as control movement.>Flare to land at slow speed and you will pull the column back>several inches at slow speed.>>Try and pitch an aircraft from its trimmed cruise speed and>you will get maybe a cm of movement and resistance.>>But controls aside the movements should show correct and they>dont.There is no doubt in my mind, that flying radio control for many years, has made quite a difference in my perception of stick movement. I seem to relate to 2" long sticks, as well as a rather long joystick that you'll find in a Stearman.I also know, that a high hour pilot, will have a heck of a time, when trying to transition the first time to 2" R/C sticks. It's pilot induced PIO all over the place! :D So yet again, much of the percieved feel, has much to do with what we're use to. L.Adamson

>I am getting into this discussion late as I spent all yesterday flying from Michigan to Louisiana and back in my Baron.>Interestingly enough-I also trained in a Duchess-then got my Baron >which I now have 120 hours in. It has been a while since I flew the Well I'd say that pretty much qualifies you as the indisputable expert on the subject ..Do you remember how much rudder it takes to maintain directional control? ....remember if it's less than in the Duchess? (Don't put yourself in a perilous situation next time you go up just to answer this silly thread, if you don't! ;-) )>Is the DF Baron perfect-no-but it close enough that I can fill any errors in it with imagination from the real thing-and get some real practical use from it.Exactly! - best way to use a sim in training is to 'mentally superimpose' your experience in the real aircraft, even if it takes a little imagination. I used to just pretend the rudder pedals were there before I got my Ch pedals.

Allcott, after searching the FAQ and all the posts back to September in the DF forum(s), I still don

"Do you remember how much rudder it takes to maintain directional control? ....remember if it's less than in the Duchess?" I think the Baron takes more than the Duchess- but as I said-it has been a while since I flew the Duchess-and only for 20 total hours.Good luck on your rating!http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

>At this stage there is no way to use this program to demonstrate / >teach even basic things like Slow flight, Adverse yaw, Ground >effect, Medium or Steep turns, Spins, L-8 etc. They are either very >difficult to view /visualize or flawed to the point that bad habits >can be learned and difficult to correct in real flight.>There are some that claim that they developed models good enough to >use in training. I have not seen one yet. Some models claim Spin >capability, but if you analyze the complete maneuver, Speed >Attitude, Recovery the all fall short. I

"My hunch is that the designers/developers did not