CPU Choices for P3D now and the future - Cores

[Noel 4,502]

Well hopefully you don't--I'm on a 5 y/o chip and don't get micro-stutters either ;o)

[Noel 4,502]

Define 'overall performance' please...

[TechguyMaxC 516]

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

Define 'overall performance' please...

See my latest post in the FSXMark thread.  If you want to see just how much of a difference there is between a lower-clocked, prior generation 6-core chip and an overclocked 7700k, go run the test yourself and compare to my results.  

[Noel 4,502]

How well does FSXM accommodate outside processes running concurrently w/ P3D?  This starts mattering at some point.   This is an extreme example used to illustrate the point:  let's say you have P3D running on a 7700 against a comparable (hypothetically) 7000 series 6 or 8 core processor, assuming no serious GPU bottleneck, and in this example the 7700 is running at 4.8 Ghz, and the 6-8 core 4.5Gz.   Now lets open and run 20 separate applications concurrently.  How does P3D run on each platform now?  How free from stutters?  Without this, and without objective evaluation of video smoothness, the 'performance' scores become somewhat limited in value.

[westman 257]

KabyLake run with less stutters t hen the 5960x att 4,7-4,8ghz i prefer the KabyLake. Same settings and apps runing like as16+asca.

Its my personal thoughts , 

[TechguyMaxC 516]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

How well does FSXM accommodate outside processes running concurrently w/ P3D?  This starts mattering at some point.   This is an extreme example used to illustrate the point:  let's say you have P3D running on a 7700 against a comparable (hypothetically) 7000 series 6 or 8 core processor, assuming no serious GPU bottleneck, and in this example the 7700 is running at 4.8 Ghz, and the 6-8 core 4.5Gz.   Now lets open and run 20 separate applications concurrently.  How does P3D run on each platform now?  How free from stutters?  Without this, and without objective evaluation of video smoothness, the 'performance' scores become somewhat limited in value.

The raw data is objective.  Evaluations of smoothness on the other hand, are not.  You like your system and that's fine.  No one's going to take that away from you.  Unless we perform standardized testing though, we're just arguing about our feelings.  If you'd like to run FSXMark and share your results it would be interesting to compare.  There aren't many 6-core chip results posted in the thread.  

[Noel 4,502]

12 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

The raw data is objective.  Evaluations of smoothness on the other hand, are not.  You like your system and that's fine.  No one's going to take that away from you.  Unless we perform standardized testing though, we're just arguing about our feelings.  If you'd like to run FSXMark and share your results it would be interesting to compare.  There aren't many 6-core chip results posted in the thread.  

I don't agree with this comment, 'we're arguing about feelings'.  Nonsense!  Here's why:  when I observe realtime video, out the window, at objects in the near field for example taxiway lines right next to the plane, other airport ground traffic whizzing by me during taxi, buildings, then up in the air observe anything from very close clouds to anything (except for road traffic, which I've turned off because it does not play well w/ 30mHz refresh VSYNC), I see absolutely zero hitches, micro-stutters, or anything except total fluid smoothness.  It truly can't be improved on.   I say this now as it's only been in the fairly recent past that I got on to what was required to get the sim running like this.  It's always been very decent, but never essentially perfect.   Nothing to do with 'feelings'.    My brain and onboard video capture system is far more advanced than anything you will find in the way of objective data gathering software currently available I'm afraid...nope, I take that back...I'm happy for!   Yes, I feel happy my onboard CPU and GPU are able to objectively evaluate P3D.  And yes, I'm happy my 5 y/o system is able to pull this off.   It's only validating my prior hope that buying as high end as was possible in the day has paid off.   I do look forward to more headroom going forward, especially in the GPU domain.   But even so, looking at GTX 1080ti I know that I will still be able to kill it w/ certain sliders, so in the end one has to adjust and live within the limits of the entire platform.   Upgrading to either KL-X or Skylake-X along w/ 1080ti will amp up slider settings another 30% or so which is substantial, but it will not improve on 'smoothness' per se because that is already at 100%.

[TechguyMaxC 516]

Your observations are subject to your perceptions.  Your perception is not unbiased.  Data is.  That is what I am meaning.  You could perceive no difference between P3D running at 20 FPS and 60 FPS in straight and level flight, but throw some turns into the equation and things change.  Also, someone else may be able to perceive refresh at a higher rate and might benefit from this, where you may not.  To that person, there is benefit where to you there may not be.  So your system is good enough for you, but that does not mean it is for all.  

[Noel 4,502]

1 hour ago, TechguyMaxC said:

Your perception is not unbiased.  Data is.   So your system is good enough for you, but that does not mean it is for all.  

I'm afraid your data isn't complete, so ultimately it is a case of bias by omission as it were.  I never said my system was good enough for all, what I said was it has reached the pinnacle of smoothness, and after that, very little more matters in the realm of perception unless you're more emotionally driven by benchmarks over perception, and apparently some are.  I also said upgrading to the best possible by mid 2017 to 2018 should add more bells and whistles since video smoothness is already at 100%.   Even there, I'm quite close to the highest level of detail possible on my 3440x1440 screen, and I have less than no desire for the next step up at my viewing distance.   Would like to add back SGSS4x, though truthfully it doesn't add all that much on this screen w/ the settings I'm currently using.   Would like to bump up terrain & cloud shadowing.    And of course, going into the most complex scenery I will be able to bump up a few sliders a notch or two and retain perfect smoothness.

[TechguyMaxC 516]

8 minutes ago, Noel said:

I'm afraid your data isn't complete, so ultimately it is a case of bias by omission as it were.  I never said my system was good enough for all, what I said was it has reached the pinnacle of smoothness, and after that, very little more matters in the realm of perception unless you're more emotionally driven by benchmarks over perception, and apparently some are.  I also said upgrading to the best possible by mid 2017 to 2018 should add more bells and whistles since video smoothness is already at 100%.   Even there, I'm quite close to the highest level of detail possible on my 3440x1440 screen, and I have less than no desire for the next step up at my viewing distance.   Would like to add back SGSS4x, though truthfully it doesn't add all that much on this screen w/ the settings I'm currently using.   Would like to bump up terrain & cloud shadowing.    And of course, going into the most complex scenery I will be able to bump up a few sliders a notch or two and retain perfect smoothness.

I haven't offered frame times because I did not record them at the time.  Also, FSXMark does not make use of frame time data.  Since my OC is 24x7, I could go back and run this test right now with frame time data.  I would be happy to do so.  Meanwhile, while you're complaining about me offering insufficient data, you're offered precisely zero.  

[Noel 4,502]

2 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

Meanwhile, while you're complaining about me offering insufficient data, you're offered precisely zero.  

Don't need to friend.  Perception is why I use simulators.   And I like to run several other processes concomitantly, which again is why at some point, regardless of multithreading in P3D, more cores starts to matter, which I think was what we were talking about.  Granted, I am unable to establish where that starts.   I haven't concluded anything for my next build, but I can conclude the urgency of an upgrade is absolutely not there currently, which buys time to see how V4 shakes out.

[JamesIceland 14]

Hey Noel, I only just saw your old question on voltages - I think I was running at 1.35v at max but I dialled it back and right now I've turned off the overclock as I'm not currently using the sim - saving it for my new build.

I got ok performance with my 3930k, there's no doubt. But my use case is perhaps different - I have an older 780Ti with it and performance has been fine although I do have to be conservative with the sliders. I do use X Plane sometimes and my system struggles with that for sure. I happen to be moving countries in the next couple of months and I know it'll be prohibitively expensive once I move to do any upgrade hence the urgency - in an ideal world I may have waited for the next Intel or next Ryzen or optimisations to Ryzen but I had to make a choice based on last week and the best set up for last week. As things stand, that is a 7700k overclocked to 5.1GHz coupled with a 1080Ti (when it's released). 

Ideally I would have waited for v4 which may be just around the corner but it is still going to be based on the ESP engine. Therefore any improvements with core management and usage are not going to be massive. I think a really well over clocked 4 core 7700k will serve me well even if they can make use of more cores. Or certainly until my next upgrade say in 3 years. Being able to hopefully not worry about VAS, dial up sliders and having some good add on scenery/aircraft that all perform smoothly is what I'm looking to achieve. 

I should also point out that my plans have changed somewhat on advice from Rob - I'm going to offload a number of the add-ons onto a spare networked computer I have hopefully allowing the 7700k to focus purely on running the sim. Therefore it is the right choice based on my urgent circumstances and today's best equipment for flight simming. 

 

6 hours ago, TechguyMaxC said:

Since my OC is 24x7

Max, there was a question I was going to perhaps ask on other forums that you may be able to answer. I plan to overclock to 5-5.1GHz - I will have an Asus Maximus Code motherboard and understand there is a very simple 1 button overclock to get it straight to 5GHz. On my current system my clock speed would vary. So when I had it at 4.2GHz overclock it would ramp up and down to that. I'm not sure if that was the correct set up as I've been watching a few videos where people use it overclocked 24/7. Would it be ok to leave it at 5GHz without a variable clock speed? I assume if there is little load on the CPU it won't matter? Just something I want to check.

My CPU is on it's way and I already have my case and PSU. If anyone can recommend a way for me to be notified of the EVGA GTX 1080 Ti FTW release, let me know - that is the GPU I plan to go for. Had some great success with EVGA cards. I cannot find a way and want to be able to jump straight on to buy it when it's released.

 

[JamesIceland 14]

By the way, this is what I have settled on for my build:

• Intel Core i7-7700K 4.2GHz Quad-Core Processor (5.1Ghz, delidded from Silicon Lottery)
• Corsair Carbide Series Air 740 (just got this case and it's fantastic - loads of space for airflow)
• Corsair 1000W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply
• ASUS ROG Maximus IX Code motherboard
• G.Skill TridentZ Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 Memory
• Corsair H115i 104.7 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler
• Samsung 960 EVO Series - 500GB PCIe NVMe
• Samsung 850 EVO 1TB 2.5-Inch SATA III Internal SSD (MZ-75E1T0B/AM) (for P3D exclusively)
• Seagate Barracude 4TB HDD
• Noctua Radiator Fan NF-A14-PWM 1x rad, 2 x case, 3 total
• Noctua Case Fans x 3 120mm NF-S12A
• GTX 1080Ti (EVGA FTX ICX 1080 Ti current preference)

I'll have a networked PC for other add-ons which will have my old 780Ti in it.

[martin-w 3,235]

3 hours ago, JamesHongKong said:

By the way, this is what I have settled on for my build:

•  
• Corsair 1000W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply
•  

 

Nice system James. But of course a 1000W PSU isn't required. So if not planning to adopt SLI and you'd like to save some money you could go for lower wattage.

[JamesIceland 14]

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

 

Nice system James. But of course a 1000W PSU isn't required. So if not planning to adopt SLI and you'd like to save some money you could go for lower wattage.

Actually I got a good deal on one locally here and I thought the option for SLI in the future may be worth it! Incidentally, for how many iterations do Intel stick with their chip sets? i.e. post Kaby Lake are there likely to be 2-4 more iterations of chip I could make use of the z270 board with? I'm just thinking of the future c. 2 years for example.

I watched an interesting video today on Ryzen which said it is a great future proof purchase on the basis that game developers have been learning to develop for multi core processors because of the PS4 and XBox One. His prediction would be that Ryzen will get faster in the next couple of years and there will be a shift towards enthusiast gaming machines being 6-8 cores with i7's being the new mainstream. He thought that this shift will happen pretty quickly so it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years but I'd love to do an AMD build as my next one for sure! A lot of what he said made sense and he'd been there during the shift from single to dual cores, which was adopted pretty much in the space of a year. Whilst the promise of multi core gaming has been there for years, it's only now with the consoles (which can help drive development) that the shift may actually happen. This was very much gaming focused though and not really relevant for our sim worlds unless it starts to translate over.

That's all amazing but I guess if ESP is the engine we are going to be using for a few years yet I'm not going to get too excited!

EDIT: Here's the video I mentioned, I may post onto the Ryzen thread too as interesting:

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by JamesHongKong
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