jesperggggg

PMDG 737NGX LED-lights and split-scimitair WL

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Hi guys!

Nowadays many B737 ngx are equipped with Split-scimitair winglets and LED-lights. I really love the upgrades and I was wondering if the PMDG team wil provide this upgrades for the PMDG 737ngx?

Jesperr

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Have a look at Post #4 in this thread, doesn't get more official than that. There's also a lot of discussion on the subject in the links I posted in my reply there if you want to see what has been discussed. I have no idea about the LED-lights, though.

 

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Nice, was wondering if there was a split scimitar winglet thread yet this week. There it is!

Oh and "first and last names on all posts" please.

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2 hours ago, softreset said:

Nice, was wondering if there was a split scimitar winglet thread yet this week. There it is!

Yup, in early with it. Now we just need a new 767 thread and a new 727 one and we're sorted.

But, in relation to the request, there are many things to consider..

In spite of PMDG having a good relationship with Boeing, we have to bear in mind that the Spilt Scimitar winglets are not a Boeing design, they were designed by Aviation Partners Inc, (also known as Aviation Partners Boeing, following a collaborative licensing deal). So one has to consider  that as with the PMDG Boeing 737 being a licensed product, licensing might also be needed from API for a split winglet addition to the PMDG Boeing model.

API is a private company, founded by a bunch of ex Boeing and Lockheed employees, it was initially begun in order to design a winglet for the Gulfstream, in order to increase its range so it could fly non-stop across the USA. API then turned their efforts toward some other aircraft - notably the Hawker 800 (aka the HS-125), the Boeing 737, and the Dassault Falcon, to add blended winglets to those aircraft. Boeing engineers tested and checked the API blended winglets for the 737, approved the design, and a deal was struck, with the split scimitar design being a further development of the design. Note that the 737 NEO will also feature split winglets, but these will be a Boeing design, broadly similar in appearance to the API split ones, but without the same scimitar curve on the lower winglet.

With regard to adding the split scimitar winglet to a PMDG 737, there is a bit more to that than meets the eye; if the fuel savings the winglet confers were the only consideration, it would be a fairly easy flight model modification (and a bit of 3D modeling too of course). But we have to bear in mind how those fuel savings occur and the very many things it changes with the 737's flight characteristics and capabilities...

Generally speaking, adding winglets either as a factory option, or as a retrofit, adds around 800,000 Dollars to the cost of the aircraft, and will confer about a 6 percent saving in costs for an average operator over that of a non-winglet variant. The word average is important here, in that much of the savings a winglet offers are as a result of the fuel used over a longer ranged high cruise altitude flight, and reduced maintenance costs over the lifetime of the aircraft. Whilst cruising at lower altitudes and making shorter flights will still see a saving on a winglet-equipped 737, it will just not be as big a saving. This is why not all new-build 737s are fitted with the winglets; some operators would not see their 800,000 Dollar investment in the winglets pay for itself before the got rid of their aeroplane to another user.

How those savings occur and what it does to the flight characteristics of a 737: First up, you can have a higher take off weight and/or a higher rate of climb on take off, which means a winglet-equipped 737 can get out of a hot and high airport more easily than a 737 without winglets. Winglets also allow the aeroplane to clear obstacles on a departure path that a non-winglet aircraft might not be able to; this means there are some airports where a non-winglet 737 cannot meet the requirements to fly from, thus your shiny winglet-equipped 737 can operate more routes. But, as far as an FS flight model is concerned, this means there are a few things you'd need to alter to make it accurate: A 737 with winglets has slightly more responsive elevator authority, resulting in an increased pitch rotation rate at take off, that effects the trim settings too obviously, so the green band for take off trim is a little bit different with a winglets-equipped 737. Next, you can do larger derate take off with winglets, and that reduces engine wear and in addition that, reduces noise and carbon footprint, so an airline is less likely to be fined for noise abatement infringements and is more environmentally friendly, which is another thing that makes more routes available to a 737 with winglets. With climb and cruise thrust both reduced, that saves on fuel and engine wear overall, but it also means the aircraft has some thrust to spare, and that means it can get up to higher altitude without a step climb, which also means it goes faster and cruises using less fuel too, because the wing is more efficient.

So far it's all good, but there is a downside to winglets beyond the cost; the maximum demonstrated crosswind limit for a winglet 737 in dry conditions, is less than it is for a 737  without winglets, it being reduced to 33 knots for a winglet variant - by the Federal Aviation Administration. The limit is not because the winglets cause any significant weathercocking or adverse yaw or whatever, it is because that is the maximum crosswind it demonstrated to the FAA during certification, since 33 knots was as windy as it got when they did so.

So, PMDG would need to: Model the winglets in 3D (possibly also alter the wingflex animation since the wingtips are reinforced on a winglet-equipped 737), alter the lift of the wings (since they generate more lift through having less wingtip vortex), alter the drag coefficient too (since winglets produce less drag by blending the pressure differential between the upper and lower wings at the tip), increase the aircraft weight by about 500lbs, since that is how much the wing-strengthening modifications, plus the winglets themselves weigh, increase the payload capability by about 2,500lbs, increase the range by about 65 miles. And of course they'd have to tweak the FMCs to reflect those changes. All of this would depend on having accurate data for performance too, and presumably requiring access to a winglet-equipped 737 as well.

Not impossible of course, but if they do it, don't expect it to be a freebie add-on, more likely in a new version of the PMDG 737NG in the manner of the recent new 747-400.

As far as exterior LED lights go, well that's a relatively easy 3D modeling change I suppose, since they do look a tiny bit differnt close up, but you could tweak the appearance of the light flashes yourself I guess if it's just the look of the illumination that you are after. Theoretically swapping out normal lights for LEDs reduces weight a tiny bit, something like about 25lbs if the entire exterior light fit was switched to LEDs if I recall correctly, but that's equivalent to one big suitcase on board or one fat passenger lol, so it's not really gonna matter much as far as the flight model is concerned. The main advantage for operators is their increased reliability, which is not really something we have to worry about in FS.

 

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31 minutes ago, Chock said:

In spite of PMDG having a good relationship with Boeing, we have to bear in mind that the Spilt Scimitar winglets are not a Boeing design, they were designed by Aviation Partners Inc, (also known as Aviation Partners Boeing, following a collaborative licensing deal). So one has to consider  that as with the PMDG Boeing 737 being a licensed product, licensing might also be needed from API for a split winglet addition to the PMDG Boeing model.

API is a private company, founded by a bunch of ex Boeing and Lockheed employees, it was initially begun in order to design a winglet for the Gulfstream, in order to increase its range so it could fly non-stop across the USA. API then turned their efforts toward some other aircraft - notably the Hawker 800 (aka the HS-125), the Boeing 737, and the Dassault Falcon, to add blended winglets to those aircraft. Boeing engineers tested and checked the API blended winglets for the 737, approved the design, and a deal was struck, with the split scimitar design being a further development of the design. Note that the 737 NEO will also feature split winglets, but these will be a Boeing design, broadly similar in appearance to the API split ones, but without the same scimitar curve on the lower winglet.

Awesome, factoid. Thanks. Learned something new (daily visit to Avsim validated)

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i dont think anyone here would mind paying for a new viariant (add on). in fact, all the posts would suggest we would support it. Just saying.

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2 hours ago, elmucki said:

i dont think anyone here would mind paying for a new viariant (add on). in fact, all the posts would suggest we would support it. Just saying.

What we have to bear in mind is that Avsim (and some of the other flight sim forums) are a bit like 'nerd central', so not necessarily a good indicator of whether something is commercially viable. There is a reason companies like Abacus stay in business; they sell loads of sim products to the much wider FS user base who don't want to pay a lot for a study sim and who rarely frequent places like Avsim; producing something along those lines is way less involved than the kind of thing PMDG is commiting itself to when it greenlights a development.

Yes it is common to see 'please make a 727 etc' type threads on this forum, and to see a number of replies on those threads from others who may also desire that, but that's only an indication that perhaps twenty Avsim forum users might buy it. Maybe. There are six replies on this thread, and even those are not from six different people.

If such an add on costs, let's say, fifty quid retail, and one hundred people buy it, obviously that doesn't mean PMDG makes five grand, nowhere near that, there are many costs for a business such as PMDG: licensing, wages for staff, research, photoshoots, testing, packaging for install, hosting, advertising, payment processing, accounting, internal revenue payments, international export sales costs etc, etc.  From personal experience when I charge people for artwork, I wouldn't get out of bed to p*ss for less than fifty quid an hour in artwork charges, yes I do help with flight simming for some people and don't charge for that, but that's no guarantee PMDG is going to find staff of a suitable skill level who would be similarly benevolent.

By now PMDG will have a pretty good handle on estimating the costs of developing something, and I daresay that a comparison between how many base pack NGs they've sold in comparison to expansion packs for NG they've sold will give at least some indication of what may or may not sell, so anything PMDG makes will have to answer one question in the positive: 'are you gonna make us some money?'. If it can't answer that question in the affirmative, no amount of 'please make' threads is gonna prompt PMDG to go ahead with it. I haven't bought their NG expansion pack, I'm happy enough with the base 737 and if I wanna fly a 900ER, I've got iFly one, and that's coming from someone who will buy pretty much buy nearly any 737 FS add on, I even bought the Ariane FS9 and FSX ones so I could do an Avsim review of them because they wouldn't give us a freebie to review!

The possible exception to this 'rule of commercial viability' is their x-plane DC-6, which was a technical exercise to see how viable developing for x-plane was as a process, so the primary goal of doing that was research, not profit.  But PMDG have learned to their cost (literally with their MD-11) that developing something which isn't a great seller is absolutely a possibility, even for a company who are known for producing excellent products.

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On 28-3-2017 at 0:24 AM, Chock said:

Yup, in early with it. Now we just need a new 767 thread and a new 727 one and we're sorted.

But, in relation to the request, there are many things to consider..

In spite of PMDG having a good relationship with Boeing, we have to bear in mind that the Spilt Scimitar winglets are not a Boeing design, they were designed by Aviation Partners Inc, (also known as Aviation Partners Boeing, following a collaborative licensing deal). So one has to consider  that as with the PMDG Boeing 737 being a licensed product, licensing might also be needed from API for a split winglet addition to the PMDG Boeing model.

API is a private company, founded by a bunch of ex Boeing and Lockheed employees, it was initially begun in order to design a winglet for the Gulfstream, in order to increase its range so it could fly non-stop across the USA. API then turned their efforts toward some other aircraft - notably the Hawker 800 (aka the HS-125), the Boeing 737, and the Dassault Falcon, to add blended winglets to those aircraft. Boeing engineers tested and checked the API blended winglets for the 737, approved the design, and a deal was struck, with the split scimitar design being a further development of the design. Note that the 737 NEO will also feature split winglets, but these will be a Boeing design, broadly similar in appearance to the API split ones, but without the same scimitar curve on the lower winglet.

With regard to adding the split scimitar winglet to a PMDG 737, there is a bit more to that than meets the eye; if the fuel savings the winglet confers were the only consideration, it would be a fairly easy flight model modification (and a bit of 3D modeling too of course). But we have to bear in mind how those fuel savings occur and the very many things it changes with the 737's flight characteristics and capabilities...

Generally speaking, adding winglets either as a factory option, or as a retrofit, adds around 800,000 Dollars to the cost of the aircraft, and will confer about a 6 percent saving in costs for an average operator over that of a non-winglet variant. The word average is important here, in that much of the savings a winglet offers are as a result of the fuel used over a longer ranged high cruise altitude flight, and reduced maintenance costs over the lifetime of the aircraft. Whilst cruising at lower altitudes and making shorter flights will still see a saving on a winglet-equipped 737, it will just not be as big a saving. This is why not all new-build 737s are fitted with the winglets; some operators would not see their 800,000 Dollar investment in the winglets pay for itself before the got rid of their aeroplane to another user.

How those savings occur and what it does to the flight characteristics of a 737: First up, you can have a higher take off weight and/or a higher rate of climb on take off, which means a winglet-equipped 737 can get out of a hot and high airport more easily than a 737 without winglets. Winglets also allow the aeroplane to clear obstacles on a departure path that a non-winglet aircraft might not be able to; this means there are some airports where a non-winglet 737 cannot meet the requirements to fly from, thus your shiny winglet-equipped 737 can operate more routes. But, as far as an FS flight model is concerned, this means there are a few things you'd need to alter to make it accurate: A 737 with winglets has slightly more responsive elevator authority, resulting in an increased pitch rotation rate at take off, that effects the trim settings too obviously, so the green band for take off trim is a little bit different with a winglets-equipped 737. Next, you can do larger derate take off with winglets, and that reduces engine wear and in addition that, reduces noise and carbon footprint, so an airline is less likely to be fined for noise abatement infringements and is more environmentally friendly, which is another thing that makes more routes available to a 737 with winglets. With climb and cruise thrust both reduced, that saves on fuel and engine wear overall, but it also means the aircraft has some thrust to spare, and that means it can get up to higher altitude without a step climb, which also means it goes faster and cruises using less fuel too, because the wing is more efficient.

So far it's all good, but there is a downside to winglets beyond the cost; the maximum demonstrated crosswind limit for a winglet 737 in dry conditions, is less than it is for a 737  without winglets, it being reduced to 33 knots for a winglet variant - by the Federal Aviation Administration. The limit is not because the winglets cause any significant weathercocking or adverse yaw or whatever, it is because that is the maximum crosswind it demonstrated to the FAA during certification, since 33 knots was as windy as it got when they did so.

So, PMDG would need to: Model the winglets in 3D (possibly also alter the wingflex animation since the wingtips are reinforced on a winglet-equipped 737), alter the lift of the wings (since they generate more lift through having less wingtip vortex), alter the drag coefficient too (since winglets produce less drag by blending the pressure differential between the upper and lower wings at the tip), increase the aircraft weight by about 500lbs, since that is how much the wing-strengthening modifications, plus the winglets themselves weigh, increase the payload capability by about 2,500lbs, increase the range by about 65 miles. And of course they'd have to tweak the FMCs to reflect those changes. All of this would depend on having accurate data for performance too, and presumably requiring access to a winglet-equipped 737 as well.

Not impossible of course, but if they do it, don't expect it to be a freebie add-on, more likely in a new version of the PMDG 737NG in the manner of the recent new 747-400.

As far as exterior LED lights go, well that's a relatively easy 3D modeling change I suppose, since they do look a tiny bit differnt close up, but you could tweak the appearance of the light flashes yourself I guess if it's just the look of the illumination that you are after. Theoretically swapping out normal lights for LEDs reduces weight a tiny bit, something like about 25lbs if the entire exterior light fit was switched to LEDs if I recall correctly, but that's equivalent to one big suitcase on board or one fat passenger lol, so it's not really gonna matter much as far as the flight model is concerned. The main advantage for operators is their increased reliability, which is not really something we have to worry about in FS.

 

Thankssss!!

 

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