Sesquashtoo

Regarding XP11, a personal comment...

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Everyone knows the old adage, "Old dogs, can't learn new tricks"

Right....

But, if 'Old Dogs' can, and are willing to reach beyond their comfort zone, or merely, "it's good enough for me...", then great things can happen.

My story; (typed by an Old Dog)...   I have an i7-975 Extreme CPU, (4 physical cores), and have always felt (8 cores) simulated in HyperThread Mode would HAVE to be better than my true four physical cores.  With this entrenched belief, I,  since purchasing my system in 2009, have never turned off H.T.

A few days ago, on the advice of another long-time forum member, I finally decided that this Old Dog, should 'try out' a new trick, even though it went against my personal logic of my system only seeing the real, 4 cores, versus 8 'simulated' physical cores.

Enter the BIOS, did I, and disabled H.T. Rebooted to the Desktop, entered the nVidia Control Panel, (I used the word, Mask) and enabled for both XP11.exe and XP10.exe the Threaded Optimization as a dedicated; On.

Rebooted for the heck of it...

Fired up XP11...and was simply astounded.  In any previous scenery or scenery/plane scenario, where I would have had a mean average FPS performance of 27-29,  with H.T. on, and Threaded Optimization as off, I now run 35-43 in most scenarios.  On my system (I can't speak for yours...), having only the true real cores in action, with their threads being optimized, is the premium experience.  I have lost nothing running P3D and FSX without H.T. enabled, as well.

So, whether you are a young puppy, or an old dog....think about that next trick you are willing to expend upon...for it might bring you the whole box of treats in a reward!

Cheers,

Post Edit:  Just so you know, (well at least with my system by changing something in my BIOS), if you have any planes that need your purchased serial number to allow them to run, you might have to reapply those serial numbers on the first time you fire up XP11, after having turned off, H.T. in your BIOS.  I guess one of my plane purchases parses your system for any 'hardware' change...and had me enter my serial number again. After that...no requirement from then there, on.  You might have to, you might not....just a FYI.

Ses

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 Very interesting Mitch, I guess this old dog is ready to try something new too, will try anything in order to squeeze out a few more fps out of my rig.

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I will try also, but I do not know what the Nvidia mask is? Can you eleborate?

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7 minutes ago, N1G said:

I will try also, but I do not know what the Nvidia mask is? Can you eleborate?

Certainly, the nVidia Driver Software screen/mask that you can right click from off your desktop.  You probably know the one.  Right click your Desktop, then left click the nVidia icon bar.  You are in....

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Oh sure the nvidia control panel. Never heard it stated the the other way. Thanks Mitch (The master tweaker).

 

Bob

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1 minute ago, N1G said:

Oh sure the nvidia control panel. Never heard it stated the the other way. Thanks Mitch (The master tweaker).

 

Bob

No Problem, Bob, and I think I will adopt from now on, calling it as you say, the nVidia Control Panel.  Cheers!

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42 minutes ago, CarlosF said:

 Very interesting Mitch, I guess this old dog is ready to try something new too, will try anything in order to squeeze out a few more fps out of my rig.

Carlos, I'm getting with no other changes...7-15 FPS totally across the board.  What an animation difference this is making. I'm never going back to H.T. as long as I run XP.  It's like I upgraded my CPU.

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30 minutes ago, Sesquashtoo said:

 It's like I upgraded my CPU.

..with less heat, which means I can probably OC a bit more  :biggrin:

 

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OK, no go for me. I had a solid 32-24 previously, now it rocks between 27 and 29. In addition, it will for some reason drop to 19 for a couple of seconds and then back. Back to the drawing board.

I am running: 6700k @4.5 16mb -- GTX1070 dual series 8gb and flying the new Eclipse 550. The test was out of KSEA. Maxed everything except reflections @MIN.

 

Bob

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55 minutes ago, N1G said:

OK, no go for me. I had a solid 32-24 previously, now it rocks between 27 and 29. In addition, it will for some reason drop to 19 for a couple of seconds and then back. Back to the drawing board.

I am running: 6700k @4.5 16mb -- GTX1070 dual series 8gb and flying the new Eclipse 550. The test was out of KSEA. Maxed everything except reflections @MIN.

 

Bob

Bob, for the go or no go test, you need to have everything within XP11, set as you did, while runnint H.T. and T.O. 'off'.  Make sure that you rebooted, after all changes, and that T.O. is set to a hard, On.  If it's going to increase your FPS, in general, that should do the trick. I get the boost even with the full glass Eclipse 550.  What I mean, is that whatever I had before...this adds that 7-15 FPS above my worst and best FPS reading with this plane, with H.T. on.

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1 hour ago, CarlosF said:

..with less heat, which means I can probably OC a bit more  :biggrin:

 

Carlos, for a true A/B test...I'd leave everything as it was, XP settings and CPU overclock. If your FPS increase, then you know that this combo gave you a hard FPS boost. Then you can try to get more.  I did no other adjustments, other than H.T. off, and T.O. set to On.  Nothing else, with hardware, or with XP internal run settings.

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23 minutes ago, Sesquashtoo said:

Bob, for the go or no go test, you need to have everything within XP11, set as you did, while runnint H.T. and T.O. 'off'.  Make sure that you rebooted, after all changes, and that T.O. is set to a hard, On.  If it's going to increase your FPS, in general, that should do the trick. I get the boost even with the full glass Eclipse 550.  What I mean, is that whatever I had before...this adds that 7-15 FPS above my worst and best FPS reading with this plane, with H.T. on.

Yea, I did reboot etc., so it's the old "your performance may vary". Where have I heard that before?:laugh:

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21 minutes ago, N1G said:

Yea, I did reboot etc., so it's the old "your performance may vary". Where have I heard that before?:laugh:

Right, always will be...what's your hardware, what's your Windows version, what update of that version you run...yep....well, the two most important components, are my i7-975 Extreme, and my FTW GTX1070., running stock.

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Gawd...am I now kicking myself. I had great XP performance in my system all along...but had a wrong CPU configuration.  Dang...all those years since 2009, and scratching my head, only thinking that H.T. was 'better' than running just your physical cores.  Oh well...now things have been corrected...

Eclipse_4.png

Eclipse_5.png


 

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That's OK Mitch. The community is with you, so please don't take this out on yourself! We all have made mistakes. :ampun:

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9 minutes ago, N1G said:

That's OK Mitch. The community is with you, so please don't take this out on yourself! We all have made mistakes. :ampun:

LOL!  

Mitch'er

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59 minutes ago, Sesquashtoo said:

Gawd...am I now kicking myself. I had great XP performance in my system all along...but had a wrong CPU configuration.  Dang...all those years since 2009, and scratching my head, only thinking that H.T. was 'better' than running just your physical cores.

Ooops!  I mistakenly thought I was in the FSX page! Disregard!!

Edited by brucets
Wrong sim!!!!

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2 hours ago, brucets said:

Ooops!  I mistakenly thought I was in the FSX page! Disregard!!

Ooops! I mistakenly thought that I was on the 'other' page! Disregard!!

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On 4/26/2017 at 3:19 PM, N1G said:

Yea, I did reboot etc., so it's the old "your performance may vary". Where have I heard that before?:laugh:

Especially when you are comparing a 1st Gen i7 to a 6th Generation part. Nice to see that X-Plane may benefit from having HT on with newer processors.

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1 hour ago, carrotroot said:

Especially when you are comparing a 1st Gen i7 to a 6th Generation part. Nice to see that X-Plane may benefit from having HT on with newer processors.

Yes, for sure!

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With HT enabled XP11 will put double the threads onto each core rather than one just like P3D does and it's the same for much other software too, and as such this scuppers the main thread performance of sims. It's not a better CPU to turn off HT, with P3D and FSX an Affinity mask is used to prevent that. Maybe you guys should look into steering XP11 to avoid ganging up threads onto HT cores so you can still gain the benefit of HT. Turning off HT may be a quick fix for the problem, but it's no way the best solution for any software on an HT platform. Just like with P3D and FSX there's no HT disabled configuration that can beat a properly set up HT enabled configuration

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Agree here Steve no way I will turn HT off on my I7 lol for several reasons ;-)

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If we can see an improvement with an app by turning off HT this simply proves that there's a problem with the app (and maybe other software) running in HT mode and needs something done to help it distribute across the CPU. It's a fact that some find hard to swallow, but the Intel guides do describe the issue thoroughly enough for the devs.

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18 minutes ago, SteveW said:

If we can see an improvement with an app by turning off HT this simply proves that there's a problem with the app (and maybe other software) running in HT mode and needs something done to help it distribute across the CPU. It's a fact that some find hard to swallow, but the Intel guides do describe the issue thoroughly enough for the devs.

A question from a non-coder: Is it possible that X-Plane's inefficiency in distributing threads is related to the fact that it's a cross-platform app (Windows, Mac, Linux)? Primary development on a Mac, but I don't know if that's relevant.

Also, I think I remember reading somewhere that Laminar has now managed to port the full XP11 flight model to the mobile app version that runs on smartphones. Again, I'm not a coder, but that might suggest some difficulty in optimizing the code, compared to something like a Windows-specific flight sim.

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Yes that's a good point. However apps on Windows need not code specifically for if HT is enabled or not since it's a Windows Operating System job to deal with the concerns. Even so that doesn't happen too well for some apps and so they need help with steering such as with P3D/FSX using an Affinity Mask. XPlane will be coded in a very similar manner, a main process will run the UI and Visual rendering, supported by a threadpooling process managing a number of threads doing the background work. because the main process becomes intense with rendering its performance would be reduced if the process is on an HT core being shared with another of those processes. Since XPlane is cross platform app it might preclude specifically coding for HT, but that's not entirely necessary for Windows apps like those anyway, a 3rd party tool would be used to improve things if the Windows version of the app doesn't include for specifying core affinity.

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