Biting the hand that feeds you...

[Guest jordanmoore]

As a sim site operator, false positives from AV softwares (free or not) has been a very real frustration. It has risen dramatically in the last 18 months as AV softwares have tried to increase their effectiveness.Not only do I have to respond to messages about my own packages (I sometimes use the clickteam installer), but I have to deal with all of the messages I get for every file in our library. It can get quite tedious. We can't really solve the problem ourself, and it is likely to only get worse.One huge example was an update to Norton AV that started flagging the teamspeak application installer as containing a virus. This was a client that had been in use for about 2 years, without a single issue. Any long-time user of the software knew it was a false-positive. Of course we got tons of posts/emails about it, but the real story is the hoops we saw the teamspeak team jump through to try and resolve this problem. This was something no developer would want to deal with. They actually ended up repackaging a new version of the software (they have hundreds of thousands of users), simply because it was faster than trying to get Norton to correct the issue or to try and educate every teamspeak user that also happened to use Norton AV.Imagine the frustration of a small commercial software vendor that depends on direct online sales for their livelyhood, and have something like this happen. It would be very damaging, and I'm sure it has happened more than once.Jordan Moore

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Dave,I scan all my files with avast before installing, and yours came up clean.However, you said this:"In addition, AVG is reporting a FALSE POSITIVE for the presence of a virus/Trojan horse. This is NOT true. When you use cheap or free av software, you get what you pay for. Don't believe me? Read this review:"Well, isn't it the same when people get a hit on their AV software? Yours is Free, and seems to meet that definition, IMHO.Instead of taking the position of taking your ball and going home, how about disclosing what the hit is, and contacting AVG to rectify the situation and supply an update. Had you taken the same amount of energy and time in this post and basically the same thread at other sites, you could have possibly contacted Grisoft for an explanation. Have you tried that path?You can do so here:http://www.grisoft.com/doc/14/lng/us/tpl/tpl01Your comments about using cheap/free software and getting what you pay for is the same analogy that can be used on your software by those getting a hit, IMHO.You also said:"Unlike flightsim add-ons, these guys are not providing free AV software because it's a hobby. They get something for it. I suspect it's a spyware cloak."Now you lay out UNPROVEN allegations. If you have evidence of that, prove it out, please.I like your Stearman, but your position is a bit contradictory.I use lots of Freeware software and Appreciate the hard work that goes into it. Your Stearman is an awesome release and has over 6600 Downloads thus far just at Avsim.But knocking freeware/cheap software and then expecting only positive responses just is not logical nor does it warrant the type of response that you are exhibiting, IMHO.I suggest you take a step back and disclose what the allegedly false hit was and what steps are being taken to rectify it.As far as taking your stuff commercial, your choice but it still would have probably shown a hit on the AV software, and maybe, just maybe, it is something in the code, who knows, except you.AV software is not perfect, even the almighty payware Norton, who doesn't catch everything, NONE DO. read again, NONE.Me, I'll be sad to see your work go, but it seems to me a different tact could of been taken, and IMHO, this could have been resolved very easily. Showing a Review of AVG from August of 2002 was a poor choice, IMHO. That is over 2 1/2 years old. So your choice, I encourage you to stay and work it out, and ask for help, and I'm sure plenty will step up, but consider the user as well.We are not questioning your program per say, but maybe a better look at your reaction here will better explain the responses you are receiving.Good Luck,JoePS - Just read your comments about the membership here at your site. Dave, you began this thread. What response you expected should be taken into consideration with the words you chose when you began the thread, IMHO. I just think you could of done this a bit better, and a bit more tact.PS - I also read multiple negative posts at two other sites. I will await the news you are pulling the files from those sites as well. You know for integrity purposes, and in line with your reasoning for pulling the file contained here:http://www.daviator.com/Dave, you are blaming the community when you should only be blaming yourself or Grisoft. The members have every right to report it, and yes you have every right to tell them to blow smoke, but try to place yourself in their shoes for a moment. Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[LAdamson 240]

>PS - I also read multiple negative posts at two other sites. >I will await the news you are pulling the files from those>sites as well. You know for integrity purposes, and in line>with your reasoning for pulling the file contained here:> That's true. The first negative post that I read, was at Flightsim com. with the headline "!!virus WARNING!!". FWIW --- Using McAfee Security, I had no virus warnings either. Checked original file, and all of FS9 after installation. I don't believe that Dave's original post was all that harsh, and somewhat justified, given the title of the virus post and followups.But, I would NOT pull the file from Avsim, while leaving it at other sites. As a very long time flightsim user, I get rather annoyed when an author plays favorites with two high profile sim sites. Better to let the steam off, and think it out for a day or two. Sometimes it "helps" to drink or smoke! :D L.Adamson

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"No worries however, I have requested that the file be pulled from the avsim library."Dave, although I've collaborated with you on the Eclipse and know what a standup guy you are in a way that few do, I question your pulling of the file and thus "robbing Peter to pay Paul".I've received nasty comments about my programs aplenty here and at other sites. One site, where I am not a member, saw a dialog about Autoland 2004 with the comments that "real pilots don't autoland", or something to that effect, as well as comments of "needless utility".I've also seen "false positive" reports of my installer for Landclass Assistant. I shrug off the nasty comments, try to help the ones with sincere concern, and move on. AVG btw is not alone in reporting false positives. If you release freeware you should also support efforts to provide programs freely--not dismiss it. AVG isn't the problem--the problem is SOME users not going by the rules and htting you for their foulups rather than trying to work with you.What motivates you to produce freeware David? Of the many downloads of your work, what about all those who happily downloaded it? Those who went the extra mile here and posted screenshots of it? Since you also release payware, what about the impact of the free advertising Avsim has given you by hosting this file?I only suggest you not generalize and make this some type of hit at Avsim simply because people here offer a differing view or haven't backed up your post 100 pct. Nothing is black and white. I agree with you about people going around our designs and complaining afterwards. I don't like your attempts to dismiss AVG since I also write freeware and your "get what you pay for" insults me and anyone else who does.Anyway, think about what I said... I wish I created freeware for the praise, but truth is I release it and upload it because I've gained so much more from the sites that host it. If even one second of my time helps the people who give theirs, then to heck with the nasty comments I receive--those are given from people who lead sad lives anyway, I suspect.-John

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

Well said John. I too was struck by the seeming hypocracy of someone who develops freeware making the claim that "you get what you pay for." I wonder what the response would be to a post making that claim about flightsim add-ons. While I'm all for installers (as long as they do what they are supposed to do), I'm a bit confused by this thread really. I can understand how annoying it must be to get complaints from people who haven't really even installed the plane as intended but it seems to me that all a developer needs to do in such a case is explain to the individual that if he circumvented the installer he's "on his own" and leave it at that. I mean technically speaking freeware devs have no "contractual obligation" to provide support for their creations at all really. I also have a problem with the notion that us end-users don't have the right to post public negative comments about a freeware offering. I mean if there's something seriously wrong with an add-on I wouldn't mind knowing about it before I go to the trouble of downloading and installing it (particularly if it's a problem of a technical nature, but even in the case that the plane simply doesn't perform authentically or install correctly or what have you - ). It seems to me that if a developer is willing to accept public adulation for their work, they have to also be willing to accept the opposite on occasion. Now obviously, the fact that it's a free offering means that criticism should be expressed in as polite and gracious a manner as possible. I fully understand that some people behave like total arses - but I think ftmp they are the exception and can/should be ignored as much as possible.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Dave, have you requested the file be removed from elsewhere, or just AVSIM?

[ubersu 78]

I actually had this happen once when a particular visual basic project file version number was updated. Apparently the combination of data in the file resulted in something recognized as a virus signature after compilation. It took about 5 hours and approximately $2500 to find and demonstrate the problem...DJ

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Tom,He has stated here:http://www.daviator.com/"Why is the file no longer available on avsim.com?Due to a host of negative comments on the avsim.com forums I have decided to have my file pulled from their library. While I suspect the vast majority of visitors to avsim.com are wonderfully supportive of the freeware community, a few but vocal group has informed me that I am out of line in commenting about recent complaints about my auto installer and false reports of a virus in my file. Please visit one of the other wonderful sites hosting my files."It appears he is holding a different standard for member comments here than at other sites, IMHO. I've looked and done some research at several different sites and seen some negative comments, but he has only singled out Avsim for file removal publicly, and not the other sites as of right now.Interesting to say the least.Regards,Joe Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Hmmm. So AVSIM is being punished for the freely stated opinions of its users. That is indeed interesting. Yet, the same complaint was posted at the other site before it was here, and with the same result. Well, guess we can't please all the folks all the time and that seems to include authors too.

[Sonar5 3]

Well, hopefully he will come back and at least explain his actions.Before researching, I thought maybe this was Isolated, but after reading his site, and seeing different reactions elsewhere than here, there is only one real conclusion, that Avsim was singled out, and he has expressed his preference for other sites than here.Maybe he should consider hosting the file on his own website, that way he can pull his own files whenever he feels the need to.Regards,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Guest Ashleigh Davidson]

Just maybe Dave, many of these people dont know who you are or have looked around to find out more. I've known your work from what now seems like year dot and would have no problem installing your stuff. I also know if I had a comment to make the first step would be via Email, not a forum jumping up and down like a madman, I also know I would recieve a reply. I also know your not a toys out the pram guy and for you to act like this is not like you at all, so I know how worked up you must be as I suspect many others who know you will think also.Past issues with other poorly written installers now make me always unzip (or exe) to a temp folder, even yours but I dont run round the room biting my hand or screaming out the window, being given the choice of install is something !The internet explosion has changed this hobby for many, for some it's easy to hide behing a keyboard with an assumed name slagging somebody you've never met (and would not even dare to speak in such a manner in a face to face meeting) Why even Mr. Allensworth has been known to sticky a thread on bad taste postings.There is good and bad where ever you go, upload ect, it's part of the package these days sadly. I think personally your being a little premature in wanting you file pulled, most of the guys here have been around a long time and are a pretty good bunch, cant say I care for all and no doubt some will think the same of me, but thats life !Please reconsider and BTW...the Stearman is a class act, shame you didnt add a wing walker...LOL !Ash Antivir personal edition (freeware) reports all clean for me.

[Bob Scott 7,721]

>I must say the attitude in this thread surprises me and it>does make me really want to hang up the freeware hat. It's>just not worth the agrevation and headaches. >>So keep your zips and freeware AV and I'll take my "business">elsewhere.Dave;OK, so,like lots of us, you published some freeware, and have now discovered that the entire Western World does not hold you in awe because of it. Shucky darn, guess you'd better schedule some extra time with the therapist to deal with THAT!! :-)Personally, I think this thread was a prefashioned complaint looking for a place to happen. I find it humorous that you cast unsupported assertions that AVG must be a spyware cloak simply because it's free, apparently without considering that if I buy into that logic then *your* freeware offering must also be the result of some dark ulterior motivation...AMF!!Bob

[Guest av84fun]

Ditto...especially, for all their hard work which is greatly appreciated, SOME developers provide installation instructions that are either:1. None...i.e no instructions or2. Incorrect instructios i.e. Copy the Aircraft Folder to your FS9 Aircraft folder when the IS no Aircraft Folder in the downloaded file.MANY of us simply do not have the time to become either PC or FS9 "techies".Regards,Jim

[Guest av84fun]

<>WOAH! Please know I am a fan of yours and LOVE the stearman but the above is simply not true. Just check out the threads re: Flight1's new Pilatus or the Dreamfleet A36.Both machines took A LOT of flack here and on other forums...in spite of the FACT that the A36 is IMHO, one of the best add-ons ever.I don't own the Pilatus yet but will...But the point is, that the payware guys catch TONS of flack including the right, the wrong and the ugly.MANY of us appreciate you work. Just KNOW that dealing with the public ALWAYS carries certain frustrations.Regards,Jim

[Guest Stearman]

>No worries however, I have requested that the file be pulled>from the avsim library.Hi David, I think my nickname leaves little doubt about my preference for Stearmans, so hopefully you'll want to read this.Nobody in Avsim can be blamed for the virus-spreading accusations. That's something you should deal with the AVG people, in any case. IMHO, this is a closed matter.As for the installer, you provided a nicely working one. If some people are clumsy enough to try different methods without really knowing what they're doing, then that's not your fault. This is so obvious that I think it doesn't even deserve any further comments.What remains then? Some negative opinions? I don't want to think you pulled the file from Avsim because of these. If that was the case, your attitude would have been simply childish.Yours is not only a wonderful piece of software: in my eyes, FS9 wasn't really complete until your Stearman came out. Similarly, though, its prestige won't be really complete until it is back in Avsim.I hope you will reconsider. It's for your benefit in the 1st place.Happy flying,