European Airspace Navigation

[Highiron 21]

Hi all,

This question pertains more to the European pilots or those who fly in Europe.

I am a real world commercial pilot. I have flown throughout Canada and the Untied States. I am familiar with using our VFR Navigational charts, WAC charts, LO charts and HE charts.

I am now getting interested in flying around and exploring Western and Eastern Europe within Prepar3D. I have avoided these area's for all my flight simming years due to the lack of proper aeronautical maps and charts for the regions. Today there are many resources available online to assist with this, however I find that the information that I am seeing in these charts are rather lacking. Am I missing something? The VFR charts will indicate terrain, alert areas, NDB's, VOR's and airports but I see no airways or air routes joining the navaids. In North America VFR charts show preferred VOR or NDB routes between stations with Victor airways (blue paths), I see nothing of this on European charts. In Europe does one simply create their own airway between stations when using VFR charts? If so, how does one know the outbound and inbound radials to select? I can see LO charts with Victor airways with the inbound and outbound radials but never the two together, is this normal for European air navigation? I am inclined to believe that if one flies in Europe both the VFR and LO charts are required in unison, is this correct? This too seems odd as the European LO charts seem more suited to RNAV operations. If I was to fly an aircraft equipped with dual VOR and one ADF these charts would still be difficult to use as they often don't provide any direct radials or bearings to or from stations but rather a plethora of waypoints in between them with little or no information. How the heck do European pilots do VOR to VOR navigation utilizing the VFR charts? I can certainly navigate using the VFR maps within the simulator to get around as needed but I would prefer to understand how to do it properly or true to real world operations whenever possible. I use real world charts and procedures when flying the simulator around North America, I would like to do the same for Europe.

Any accurate information appreciated.

Cheers!

[ms2 184]

Hello Highiron

There are expensive papers maps for VFR for real aviation in Europe... But

Personnaly, I use a free flight planner on screen: "Little Navmap". All kind of levels of airways are proposed and suggested. Very easy to use.

Like this software because in one soft, I find all informations to fly in P3dv4.3

Hope that help you...

 

[skelsey 765]

Hello Thad,

SkyVector has worldwide IFR and VFR charts for free. The Skyvector VFR charts aren't as detailed as a proper CAA 1:500,000 chart or the US VFR sectionals, but just about usable: the IFR charts are pretty good for the most part (select 'World Hi' or 'World Lo' as applicable at top right). SkyDemon Light (requires Internet Explorer and Silverlight - doesn't work in Chrome or Edge) is a free resource which is much better for UK VFR flying as it is much closer to the CAA charts in terms of information (many UK GA pilots use the SkyDemon app on a tablet for planning and, indeed, in-cockpit navigation).

The best/most cost effective solution is probably a Navigraph/Aerosoft Charts subscription which (in the case of Navigraph) will give you worldwide Jeppesen enroute chart access (for, obviously, a fraction of the cost of a 'real' Jepp subscription); these naturally are much more detailed.

However:

3 hours ago, Highiron said:

This too seems odd as the European LO charts seem more suited to RNAV operations. If I was to fly an aircraft equipped with dual VOR and one ADF these charts would still be difficult to use as they often don't provide any direct radials or bearings to or from stations but rather a plethora of waypoints in between them with little or no information. How the heck do European pilots do VOR to VOR navigation utilizing the VFR charts?

As far as the UK is concerned it is worth noting that all UK airways (low and high) now require BRNAV (they are also Class A airspace, so IR required), so the short answer is: you can't, really (the low airways still mostly follow the old conventional nav system so you could probably technically manage it but the VORs/NDBs are increasingly being taken out of service). IRL VFR you'd probably get a paper chart and protractor out to measure bearings (or plot on SkyVector/Skydemon and read off the bearing)!

It's a bit of a faff to get an airways flightplan in to the Eurocontrol system (everything goes through the central flow management system) so the vast majority of GA/pleasure flying in the UK takes place outside of CAS and the airways system. In the UK the airways are not directly shown on VFR charts as most pilots will never use them, but what obviously is shown is the lateral and vertical extent of the airway so you can avoid flying in to it :). One of the issues (I believe) is that obtaining an EASA Instrument Rating, obviously required to fly IFR in Class A, is an extremely expensive and complex endeavour for the average PPL holder so most don't bother unless they plan to fly commercially, whereas I gather the FAA IR is a bit more reasonable in terms of requirements.

On the continent there's less Class A but still largely RNAV (SkyVector helpfully colour-codes the airways -- blue are RNAV, black conventional nav). There are a few countries (Austria, Hugary, Croatia to name a few) which are designated "free route airspace" where airways have been removed and you can just route direct (in some cases both high and low airways have been removed, in others the low airway system remains but the high-level routes have been removed).

Hope that makes some sense as a very, very brief overview of the system -- shout if you have any further questions!

[John_Cillis 2,406]

9 hours ago, ms2 said:

Hello Highiron

There are expensive papers maps for VFR for real aviation in Europe... But

Personnaly, I use a free flight planner on screen: "Little Navmap". All kind of levels of airways are proposed and suggested. Very easy to use.

Like this software because in one soft, I find all informations to fly in P3dv4.3

Hope that help you...

 

Great post!  I never knew about Little Navmap, I downloaded it and just love it for preflight and setting up a flight plan on longer routes.  What a handy tool, and free at that.  Makes me glad I contributed free software (Landclass Assistant) to MSFS/P3D so I could get free software in return and not feel too guilty about the hard work the developer put into it.

John

[CockpitGlass 0]

12 hours ago, skelsey said:

SkyDemon Light (requires Internet Explorer and Silverlight - doesn't work in Chrome or Edge) is a free resource which is much better for UK VFR flying as it is much closer to the CAA charts in terms of information (many UK GA pilots use the SkyDemon app on a tablet for planning and, indeed, in-cockpit navigation).

I didn't know about this one. Great resource for flying in the UK!

Thank you, sir!

[Highiron 21]

@skelsy

Thanks Simon.

I didn't mention that I was already using SkyVector but thanks for the input in case I wasn't. 😉

I did take a look at SkyDemon and Little Navmap. They too being vector programs tend to also have a bias to RNAV opreations. SkyVector still appears to be my best option as at least it has the LO and HE charts as they are sold in the supply stores. It appears that there are more detailed VFR maps but they are just not incorporated into SkyVector. I live in Canada and even in SkyVector 90% of the information is missing on the VFR side. Our charts are as detailed and information packed as the U.S. ones but you wouldn't know it going north of the border in SkyVector. The LO and HE charts however are the same detail as the paper charts I possess. I'm not sure why the difference in the detail, possibly accessibility and/or cost. You had mentioned that most VOR's and NDB's are being decommissioned. It appears this trend is happening at an accelerated rate in Europe over North America. Interesting point on Austria, Hungary, and Croatia being basically what we call "Free Flight". We still don't support that here for many reasons, concern over flight into terrain, workload on en-route controllers for traffic separation and fear of aircraft inadvertently straying into restricted or special use airspace (Class F) here in Canada. It makes sense with the shear density of aircraft in certain areas of Europe that VFR aircraft just avoid it altogether hence no airways depicted on VFR charts, just the airspace dimensions and classification. I tend to fly a pseudo VFR incorporating some IFR practices. Even when flying VFR in Canada and the United States I fly airways and air routes using the available navaids. Rarely do I go direct. This allows for a quick air filing of a IFR flight plan if the weather sours and no need to navigate in IMC to an IFR route which is a classic for a CFIT incident. It also keeps me clear of restricted airspace, both in Canada and particularly in the U.S. where MOA's cover the landscape. It also makes it virtually impossible to be lost or confused on ones position. I just assumed the same or similar practice would be used in Europe. It looks like to get fully what I need I'll have to take a look at the Navigraph/Aerosoft Charts subscription option again. I had Navigraph many many years ago, but found the interface cumbersome and didn't like the "credit" method of purchasing material, I may have to take a look at it again as well as the Aerosoft option. Other than that I will have to order charts on line and have a credit card that I'm ready to trash and patients to receive them in the mail, LOL. It's becoming more and more difficult to fly older aircraft with older navigation methods at a time when all the information provided today is catering to RNAV operations. Even an INS in a DC-10 still needs the waypoint Lat/Long to be entered to work and even that information is rarely available on most waypoints on current charts outside VOR's and NDB's. I'd love doing flights from Canada or the U.S. to Greece or Europe in a classic aircraft of the 60's and 70's, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to do so as there is a mismatch between the old methods of navigation and the new of today; so much so that Concorde would have a tough time plying the skies of today, its systems were so specific to type they couldn't be upgraded or modernized. The information and infrastructure to conduct these flights is becoming increasingly difficult as it is being lost in history. If everything I flew in the simulator had a FMS, FMC or a Garmin1000 I could fly anywhere on the globe with current information available, but if not, then...

Thanks for your input. It's much appreciated. Much to learn about the differences of flying on the other side of "the pond". 🙂

[pracines 823]

Not sure what NAV database you are using, but  in order for resources like SkyVector to be useful in sim, the sim data should match it (current AIRAC).  

A free resource is: http://www.aero.sors.fr/ 

A more complete (updated comm. freq. and airspace configurations included) resource is: https://www.fsaerodata.com/

Navigraph Ultimate (charts and FMS data) is the way to go IMO as FS Aerodata uses the Navigraph data for essentially a complete service for all the nav database needs. 

 

[Highiron 21]

1 hour ago, pracines said:

Not sure what NAV database you are using, but  in order for resources like SkyVector to be useful in sim, the sim data should match it (current AIRAC). 

Fully agree Paul.

Last I dabbled in it, the core sim data could not be changed and is hard coded into the software. Only certain aircraft that are supported are able to have updated air navigation data. Has this changed? I know aircraft incorporating Navigraph (or Aerosofts equivalent) databases can have a current AIRAC installed with a subscription, but I don't believe this will help with aircraft that don't support it. They would be stuck with default data that if I'm not mistaken hearkens back to the FS9 days so that would be pre-2004. In fact my old maps that I used to fly with back then work perfectly in default Prepar3D. New maps on the other hand are a different story. It's true indeed that using current charts or SkyVector with an old navigation database is not ideal, but for the most part (99% of the time) works. I only find a few changes or differences from time to time, but most of the navaids remain the same. Some that are in the default data are no longer used and decommissioned while new ones on charts don't exist in Prepar3D at all. Perhaps someday in the future L.M. will change P3D so that the whole database can be current and not just on an aircraft by aircraft basis. For now I do the best that I can with the hodgepodge method that currently exists. The same can be said about the magnetic variation on runways. A current AIRAC cycle will include all the current runway numbering and heading based on current magnetic variations. In some cases whole airports have been renumbered such as mine at CYYC, but in the simulator, the runways are objects using an AFCAD that hard codes in the actual runway magnetic heading based on the variation at that time. AIRAC updates I don't believe change these values so there already is a mismatch. Not the best if conducting practice approaches to CAT III minima. IRL current publications always match runway magnetic orientation so this is never an issue. The  same holds true for VOR's. Outbound and inbound radials are based on magnetic values that have been corrected from the magnetic variations. A new chart or AIRAC database will show current correct values, but in the simulator these new radial headings will not properly line up with the default data. Again not an issue if flying with GPS or FMS, but not ideal for VOR to VOR navigation. In essence we still can't use Prepar3D in such a manner where the current AIRAC data is used and all the airport data are in sync. It's not possible yet.

I will certainly take a look at those links provided. Thanks

[Highiron 21]

2 hours ago, pracines said:

A free resource is: http://www.aero.sors.fr/ 

A more complete (updated comm. freq. and airspace configurations included) resource is: https://www.fsaerodata.com/

Navigraph Ultimate (charts and FMS data) is the way to go IMO as FS Aerodata uses the Navigraph data for essentially a complete service for all the nav database needs.

Hmmm, intriguing.

It seems things have changed quite a bit since I last looked at fixing these issues about 7 years ago. The first link I recall using many years ago but it was no where near as extensive as it appears today. Thanks for re-introducing me to it. It appears I stand corrected on the ability for the magnetic variation and runway alignments on default nav data and airports, it can indeed be synced according to these links. It still doesn't solve the problem of 3rd party add-ons of a higher priority in the scenery files, but it's a step closer.

I'm going to check out the FSAerodata/Navigraph combination. I believe it too corrects runway numbering for current magnetic variations, but I need to check to make sure. FSAerodata rates seem pretty fair. I like the idea I can pull the Nav data into present day. I'm not sure about the loss of those VOR's though that older aircraft that don't have RNAV capabilities depend upon. It's a challenging problem for sure.

Thanks for the awesome links Paul 👍

[jcomm 5,939]

NAV Portugal sells the charts for Mainland Portugal, and that's what I always used.

No "victor-like" stuff though...  Anyway around here we're light years ahead of USA... :-)  We're ( since 2009 ) Free Route Airspace. See the MESS it was before and after here:

https://www.nav.pt/en/nav/air-navigation-services-1/free-route

 

[skelsey 765]

Hi Thad,

Yep, the SkyVector VFR charts leave a lot to be desired outside the US (I assume due to data availability, as you say). The Jeppesen/Lido charts provided by Aerosoft/Navigraph are full IFR charts so lack the terrain details/ground features that would be useful to a VFR pilot. The standard fare used by VFR/IMC-rated pilots over here is the CAA 1:500,000 series, of which there are three sheets that cover the UK - one for southern England and Wales, one for northern England and Northern Ireland, and a third for Scotland. They look a bit like this - some find them a bit cluttered, but personally once you get your head round them I don't think there's anything better for VFR:

That's my paper copy, but they are available in digital format -- the place I know of is "Memory-Map" (https://www.memory-map.co.uk/maps/aviation?___store=eu_en) - payware, but for sim purposes you rarely need to update of course as ground features don't really change (though someone who knows their stuff will be able to spot one particular feature which has changed since I purchased that chart!).

As far as VFR is concerned, Orbx FTX EU England scenery in combination with the above chart and standard Mk1 eyeball/visual navigation DR techniques works very well and I very rarely get lost uncertain of my position 😉.

Another UK oddity is that it is possible (given the appropriate rating, of course) to fly IFR outside controlled airspace and without talking to anyone (yep...). 

9 hours ago, Highiron said:

I'd love doing flights from Canada or the U.S. to Greece or Europe in a classic aircraft of the 60's and 70's, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to do so as there is a mismatch between the old methods of navigation and the new of today; so much so that Concorde would have a tough time plying the skies of today, its systems were so specific to type they couldn't be upgraded or modernized.

Indeed -- Concorde already had issues even before its retirement as it wasn't RVSM-compliant and so had to have a special exemption (well, I guess at FL600 it wasn't too much of an issue!). 

I wonder if it's technically possible to make navaids, like other scenery objects in FS/P3D (the Berlin Wall, for instance!), display or otherwise based on the sim date set? Obviously it would be a rather tedious task for somebody but it would mean one could potentially set the date to 1960 and get a plethora of navaids light up that aren't there in 2018!