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Tom Allensworth

UK's wierd laws for violent crime

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This has been making me mad for a long time and so finally I wanted to share it with all of you and see what you think.Is it just me or does the UK have a strange & frustrating law-system when it comes to serious crime?Almost every week some innocent is mugged, stabbed or beaten to death in the UK - you hear all about it - but you hear even less about convictions (which themselves are a joke)After moving back here from America I get the impression that:1. The law really is on the side of the bad guys2. You get ridiculously lenient sentences for brutal crimes3. Organisations jump to the defence of criminalsIm watching BBC News right now and--An 18 year old who is "mentally unstable" (rubbish) and butchered his parents has got a "life" sentence. Life sentence. Right. The judge said a "minimum of 5 years". Makes me so mad to hear stuff like that.-Next up a man whose home was repeatedly attacked ran outside to chase of the kids who were causing it. They killed him. Those kids were "arrested". With the way things work here in a matter of hours they will be bailed and then sent to "juvenile homes"This chap from some childrens organisation then popped on the screen ranting on about how it would be "harsh" to send children to prison.It seems every news story everyday has someone in the UK dying violently and their killer getting away with it.And then of course you have the burglaries - now if you are in the UK you have to "restrain" yourself and use "reasonable force" if you discover an intruder. If you dont *you* get done in by the law. Very few things press my buttons but this is one of them. If someone has broken into your home and is threatening you or your family you should be free to do anything you want. That of course remains a pipe dream. In the meantime people defending themselves in their own houses are being hauled to court.Its getting old and I envy the power American police have, the cops here have none of that. That fact combined with a laughable sentencing system: is it any surprise that the bad guys milk it for all its worth?Kids in the midst of beating up old people would be initmidated by a police officer comin at em with a chunky bullet-proof vest, nightstick and a holstered 9mm Glock - and the power to use them. Case in point - a few weeks ago a chap in Cardiff called 999 (that the UKs version of 911) and said that some kids were walking along his street kicking in car doors. The cops show up - and ask the kid if he is ok and is hurt.And why do they call it a "life" sentence and then hand down "at least 5 years"?These are crimes that deserve a *true* life sentence - you enter prison and you leave in a coffin. For real - the UK is a theme-park for criminals.I really feel bad for UK cops, they are very brave people who unlike their US (& continental European) counterparts dont have the security of instant access to a firearm when some madman is charging at them with a Samurai sword (happened for real). Respect to them, I know they must get really mad when they see some slimeball sent to prison for a few months - but their hands are tied.Ok Im done.Be safe out there.

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Hi Nevin,I don't know if this post of ours will stay here for long, due to all the PC nonsense thats rife in this day and age,but, I could not agree with you more.despite what people thought,and I still maintain he was set up, David Blunket was on the right path, if only he had been left alone to get on with it, but that can't happen now as soon as someone decides to do a hard line app, we have all the do goodies coming out of the woodwork with "it's not fair" or "it's far too tough" or whatever, it really gets my back up, the same with these young hooligans who terrorise the old folk, I would like to remind them that these Old Folk are the ones who had to put up with being bombed day and night, had to go without the basic necessities, and had to survive on rations for how long, just to make sure that WE would all have the right to freedom of speech, and be able to walk about freely to boot, unfortunately, there are a growing number of legal people who have come to realise that they too can milk the system in representing these people who have been proved without a shadow of a doubt are guilty.but, all of this is totally useless with the current corrupt system of judges that we have, who, in my opinion, should be locked in glass cages in museums, as thats the level of their usefulness as far as I'm concerned.like you, I am finished now, and I must admit I do feel a little better for getting this off my chest.Comrade Steve, (couldn't resist it,sorry)PS I have travelled the world extensively, and give the Persian gulf as an example, if you're caught stealing, you're hand comes off. no repeat offenders there that I have heard of.

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***I have travelled the world extensively, and give the Persian gulf as an example, if you're caught stealing, you're hand comes off. no repeat offenders there that I have heard of.***I wonder how many innocent people have had their hands (or heads for that matter) chopped off in this land of justice that you refer to.Thanks, but no thanks.Chris Low.

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Hello sb55mvThanks for the reply :) Yes they have some hard laws in the MiddleEast & parts of Asia (notably Singapore) - but it works. Remember that American kid who was flogged publicly in Singapore city for spraying graffiti on cars? ----------------------------------------------------------------------..we have all the do goodies coming out of the woodwork with "it's not fair" or "it's far too tough" or whatever, it really gets my back up, the same with these young hooligans who terrorise the old folk----------------------------------------------------------------------*That* is a particular flavour of crime that really makes me angry. Respect for elders has gone out the window - a problem the UK isnt alone in.And as for this PC epidemic.....I totally agree with you!________________________________________________________________________Chris-Your concern is valid of course. If Im not mistaken that was the reason the UK abandoned the death penalty?As for this thread Im just addressing these insultingly lenient sentences handed down to people who have done terrible things. Those poor families of the victims, I cannot begin to imagine what they must be thinking when such sentences are given.

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Heck, the UK has tough laws compared to the rest of the peoples' republic of Europe.

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------Heck, the UK has tough laws compared to the rest of the peoples' republic of Europe.-----------------------------------------------------------------------Im dont know much about mainland European laws. I dont know why but I was under the impression that France has pretty tough laws?I visited Paris with some friends in 1995. We were eating at a streetside cafe at about 2100hrs when these two kids walked up to our table, unzipped and urinated all over us and our food.Things happened fast.About 5 waiters jumped them both and held them down. A police van turned up and out came the nightsticks and boy those kids got BEAT down and kicked into the back of the van liek they were bags of rice.We got a free meal & the cops were extremely polite and apologetic. We each spent an hour in the shower lol but it was a good comfort factor to know that the law came down hard on clowns like that.Nice one Gendarmes!

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There is alot of sensationlist misreporting though. Regarding the that kid that murdered his parents - surely that is pretty strong evidence that he is a compressor short of a turbine??

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Christ, that is really disgusting behaviour. They deserved everything that they got after that.Chris Low.

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I have to agree with UK law.. it stinks.I get annoyed with the sentence lengths. Someone could murder someone else because they were stealing their car and ran them over. This 9/10 will be reduced to manslaughter even though they chose to steal the car. They'd probably be sentenced 5 years for killing an innocent person and get out in 3.

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European social justice partially excuses people for their crimes by assuming that society, as well as the individual, is responsible for crime. This fosters a collective aim of improving society for all.Americans do not have this concept of social justice and assume individuals are responsible for their actions - period. There are pros and cons of each system - this thread highlights a disadvantage of the Europen model but there are advantages.

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The main advantage of British society over that in the US is that we don't have millions of households with loaded guns in bedside drawers.Chris Low.

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You mean European justice excuses crime by stating that it's the big bad capitalists who bring it upon themselves to be mugged by flouting their wealth to the less fortunate masses.The clear cure for this is total redistribution of wealth, with the government taking everything and giving it back as it sees fit.

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>You mean European justice excuses crime by stating that it's>the big bad capitalists who bring it upon themselves to be>mugged by flouting their wealth to the less fortunate masses.>The clear cure for this is total redistribution of wealth,>with the government taking everything and giving it back as it>sees fit.hi jwenting,er ..no. European model of social democracy involves redistribution of wealth to tame the excesses of capitalism because when markets are left to run free the result is gross inequalities between rich and poor, leading to more crime as peoples aspriations become lawfully unreachable. The more moderate approach to sentencing in Europe compared to America is ultimately the will of a more moderate electorate!

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>The main advantage of British society over that in the US is>that we don't have millions of households with loaded guns in>bedside drawers.>>>Chris Low.Hi Chris.yes, thats a tricky one indeed, but, remember the old saying "an Englishman's Home Is His Castle", well, it means absolutely nothing now, I quote the case of a couple in bed at night in their home when they heard a noise downstairs, the man went to investigate and got stabbed through the heart,he Died straight away, the woman was beaten to a pulp and only just made it.as far as I'm concerned, Anyone at all who enters My house Without My permission is Trespassing,and leaves any rights whatsoever they might of had at that border. and I should be able to defend My Home in Whatever way I deem necessary, but, you see, we have a big grey area again here as no-one wants to seem to give us an actual written guide on what is deemed "reasonable force", besides, what are we supposed to protect our wives,children,property with exactly, a letter opener, they are coming in with knives and guns.surely we should be able to exact the same terror on them as they do us.perhaps then they might think twice about coming in to our homes in the first place, and, again, until the judges and legal system in general starts handing out more fitting sentences for the crime we will see no changes.on a personal note however, if anyone came into My home, I'm not too sure exactly what I would do as it has not happened yet. (touch wood), but, I do have a baseball bat downstairs as well as up stairs and would use them accordingly to protect both my family and home, by the way, I have worked hard for all of them, so, why should someone that I have never seen or know get any of them.it seems that the only time we see a hard sentence is when it happens to some MP of member of society that matters in some way.finished for now,Steve.

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Steve,I agree completely with your comments. As for handy weapons with which to defend myself, I have a nice bag of golf clubs in the house. A suitably wielded five iron would be more than capable of incapacitating an unwelcome visitor :-)Chris Low.

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>Anyone at all who enters My house>Without My permission is Trespassing,and leaves any rights>whatsoever they might of had at that border.So what you want is a license to kill, in effect a death penaly for burglary or mere trespassing? Nice guy you are!-

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"So what you want is a license to kill, in effect a death penaly for burglary or mere trespassing? Nice guy you are!"Having been victim of a burglary last year, let me answer that. If someone enters your house and you and/or your loved ones are inside, what would you do? 90 pct. of the home invasions in Phoenix last year ended up in the shooting of at least one of the occupants, although we had six killed the other day in Yuma--details are sketchy. I was lucky--I and my wife and child were out when we were broken into. But no doubt about it, I'm not going to assume someone is breaking into my home with the intent of "mere trespassing". It doesn't take much for them to elevate trespassing into murder--especially with the "leave no witnesses" philosophy the illegal alien smugglers are using here in the States looking for places to hide their human cargo. I believe you need to be a crime victim--or see the look in your child's eyes when their own room--their little world--is violated--before you become critical of someone in those shoes. My daughter still can't sleep through the night, and she didn't even see the burglar. She just saw the end result. -John

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>"So what you want is a license to kill, in effect a death>penaly for burglary or mere trespassing? Nice guy you are!">>Having been victim of a burglary last year, let me answer>that. If someone enters your house and you and/or your loved>ones are inside, what would you do? 90 pct. of the home>invasions in Phoenix last year ended up in the shooting of at>least one of the occupants, although we had six killed the>other day in Yuma--details are sketchy.> >>-JohnSad numbers indeed, but the solution isn't that homeowners should use heavy handed measures. You are already doing that and it results in 90% shootings. Of course the burglars will carry guns and when they know there's a risk of meeting trigger-happy inhabitants who can shoot them at will and walk away with it. And many criminals are also more ruthless and probably more adept at handling weapons than the average homeowner. So are the US-style laws that the original poster calls for really all that effective? -

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"You are already doing that and it results in 90% shootings."Wrong. Most of the home invasion killings in Phoenix and elsewhere in the states are of unarmed homeowners. As I said, the mindset of the burglars is "leave no witnesses". They aren't carrying guns because they are worried about their poor worthless lives--and that's what they are in my opinion. They carry guns because they don't want to spend any time in prison. I really think you are way out of line with some of your assumptions here. And by the way, I have never owned a gun, but I wouldn't want to be the other guy in a hand to hand fight--I took my share of bruises being a "runt" growing up until I learned how to defend myself rather well. The problem is, there's an old adage--"don't bring a knife to a gun fight". That's why more homeowners are arming themselves here--they are getting fed up about hearing about unarmed citizens getting murdered, execution style.This isn't new, btw. 30 years ago, when I was in my teens, some local punks in my small hometown walked into a liquor store. Seeing the owners and employees were unarmed, they lined them up in the walk-in freezer and killed them, execution style. They got caught because they bragged about the incident. I even met some of the punks--they would look like you or I.Honestly, I don't think US Style laws deter crimes. Get caught here, and you get a nice cell with a TV, Boombox, even the Internet in some cases. I think we need to lock 'em in cages and treat them like the animals they are. If you can't live with society, you forfeit your rights, in my opinion, if you are proven guilty. In fact, I'd rather not have the death penalty if I could be assured that the perp would spend a lifetime in a cell with no windows, no entertainment--nothing to look forward to. But that's "cruel and unusual"--never mind the cruelty they inflict on those around them.-John

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-----------------------------------------------I believe you need to be a crime victim--or see the look in your child's eyes when their own room--their little world--is violated--before you become critical of someone in those shoes.-----------------------------------------------Extremely well said. I could not agree more.

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1) I really doubt harsher laws will solve any crime problems in Britain or elsewhere in Europe. It will probably only make crime more brutal, "leave no witnesses" as you say.2) The prospect of getting locked up in a cage will probably also increase the motivation to get rid of every single witness.-

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>Everyone needs an advocate, eh?John, yes I believe so, that is what separates us from the animals. All I can say is, whatever you are doing in the US, it isn't working. There seem to be little connection between policing and crime rates. You can be angry about it, condemn the bad guys and call them animals and lock them up in windowless cages (just make shure they never get out on the streets again after that punishment), or beat them up, something you say you are good at, but will it solve the problem? No, and that is what the discussion is really about: What measures are effective.Nevin, Singapore may seem fine until one day you arrive there and discover some that drug smugglers that have used your suitcase in a clever smuggling scheme. Suddenly you are facing death penalty for a crime you did not commit, and the bad guys get away. Nice! And crime happens even in Singapore.I can hardly express how glad I am to not live in such a police state. I have never had any business with the police, but if I should someday be falsely accused, or even commit a minor offence, at least I can be sure that in my I won't be whipped in public.Crime is currently getting tougher and more organized in Europe, and there are also more cases of crime commited by mentally unstable individuals. But the problems really lie with society, not the justice system. To believe that harsher laws can solve the problem is wishful thinking.-

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