A scary New World

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Well, now according to a federal judge an American citizen with known ties to Al-Queida can be imprisoned indefinitely without being charged. So just how tenuous are those ties going to be eventually? And how long before the same methods at Guantanomo Bay are used here, as long as a judge can be convinced there is evidence of a link??? From the start, we have slipped into doing just what "they" want us to do, abandoning our principles to save them. The Gitmo detainees are not eligible for POW status cuz officially we are not at war. Then they are not eligible for civil trials because they are foreign nationals captured in a time of war. HUH??? Has the Rule of Law become this much of a joke so quickly? Isreal has one of the better reasons for torture, a bomb may be ticking and they have to find out where. But they have recently stepped back from it even when innocents are at stake, because a power like that is so subject to abuse, and the results are a lot of people who were tortured falsely or are more inspired to fight on because they, their friend or loved one was tortured. And individuals under torture may tell you things you want to hear, but they could be an innocent trying to end his or her pain, or stalling with disinformation. A big reason for those elements of the Geneva accord in the first place. People have been released after a signifigant time in Cuba because it is finally realised they had no ties to Al-Queida. Bet my bottom dollar they, or some who hear their story, will be making tracks to join up though!One man's terrorist has always been another man's freedom fighter or hero, and turning them to martyrs, giving them further incentives and an arena for jihad seem to be our major accomplishments in the "war on terror" since the time after Afghanistan was freed. If the British had won one of their wars against what were called terrorists at the time, the state of Isreal would not exist. If not for the PLO, would there be talk of a state for Palestine? Even when a democracy fights with a hand behind its back, it will still have the upper hand- if it truly remains a democracy.Best Regards, Donny

[Guest]

ah yes, the glorious freedom fighters who attacked and caused great harm to the Great AmeriKan Satan on 11 September 2001.They should be remembered as martyrs to the Cause of liberating the world from AmeriKan opression and the glorious struggle towards the Khalifate.

[KevinAu 441]

>Donny AKA Shalomar>Fly 2 ROCKS!!!>>From the start, we>have slipped into doing just what "they" want us to do,>abandoning our principles to save them. >"They" don't "want us to do" anything. They just want to kill us.>One man's terrorist has always been another man's freedom>fighter or hero, and turning them to martyrs, giving them>further incentives and an arena for jihad seem to be our>major accomplishments in the "war on terror" since the time>after Afghanistan was freed. >Best Regards, DonnyThere is no freedom fighting here. Jihad is merely the young Arab male's hip-hop. Young disaffected Americans in the sixties had their flower power and Woodstock. Disaffected young black kids have their gangsta life. Disaffected white kids have skateboarding and grunge. The fad these days for the disaffected young Arabs is to kill people and blow themselves up. That's just their pop culture. They just wannabe cool martyrs.Lock him up and throw the key away.

[Guest]

Don't lock them up, execute them in public.The Saudis do it with a sword in a public square, then burry the body in an unmarked grave. Efficient, cheap, and noone's going to hijack an aircraft and demand the release of their incarcerated comrades.

[Guest Shalomar]

How many tens of thousands of people die of lung cancer every year? If the right to smoke were taken away, or individuals with ties to tobacco companies were held without trial, it would be a different situation. Regardless of the merits of this one case, for an American citizen to be locked up for three years without a formal charge is a serious situation. If he explains himself to a jury as per his rights and is found guilty of what the government is insinuating, THEN lock him up and throw away the key. Don't you see the slippery slope? My question is valid, how long before there are Gitmos set up on American soil for American citizens American power can conjur a link to Al-Queida with?We apoligised recently, and admitted it was unconstitutional to lock up supposed Japanese sympathisers during WWII.I never claimed they actually are freedom fighters, if they can paint themselves into maryrs and heros they would happy with that. But a lot of our policies, including the innocents who have wound up at Gitmo and been released up to a year later, are helping them do just that.There were many people in the U.S. who supported the King of England thru the revolution. We were in far more dire situations startegically than now for decades after, but no one was locked up WITHOUT TRIAL for supporting the King or the Indians. The book "Trading with the Enemy", forget the author, but it's a good read. Standard Oil and Ford motor company provided substantial assistance WELL INTO THE START OF DECLARED HOSTILITIES with the Germans, going so far as to coordinate with the U-boats as to which ships were carrying their cargoes for them. Think we'll ever see some penalties for that imposed?But a few of what many call Yahoos, Cowards, Losers etc... we taught how to fight against the Soviet Union, and armed in the first place, turn against us and you're willing to kiss your rights goodbye? Those who would be willing to give up a little freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security. Our founding Fathers were too smart to do that, that's where the whole concept of inalienable rights came in that we all agreed to when we signed up for this free country thing.The whole aproach to counterterrorism reminds me of bombing missions that cost millions against sampans that can be built for thousands. I won't bother with all the obvious stuff they've missed on the defensive end, but the best offense involves a good, long hard at history. There is evidence Iranians are tiring of clergy rule, but why did they choose it in the first place? It seemed a better alternative at the time than "The Friend of Nine U.S. Presidents".The jig may soon be up in Saudi Arabia too, an ignored/glossed over powderkeg for past decades.Best Regards, Donny

[MarkRey 16]

Nothing can excuse 9/11 or any such acts, and I have no qualms with death for proven murderers, but how do you know that any given inmate sitting in prison at Gitmo for the last x years is guilty? Because the Administration says so? As a foreigner looking on - I wept for the Red White And Blue back then. Perhaps I am ignorant, no, without doubt I am ignorant, but again, as a foreigner looking on, with the greatest of respect - the sheer apparent lack of accountability at Gitmo sticks in my craw.It's said justice ought not only to be done, but also seen to be done - seems to apply imhoregards,MarkXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256

[KevinAu 441]

That is probably the most rambling post I have read here in a long time. You bring up many wide and varied "wrongs" of many different situations and time periods all lumped together in a few paragraphs. Let me try and bring some clarity to this. There are people who want to kill you. "Shalomar" sounds kind of Jewish to me. If you are a Jew, I would bet that your throat would not last more than 15 seconds if you walked into a cell at Gitmo. The inmates there would cut it with their fingernails. The blood draining from your neck would make a truely slippery slope. There are mean people in this world that are out there. Why not let the people who's job it is, who swore an oath, to protect you from them, do that job? Why insist that they have to do that job with their hands tied behind their back? The sooner we win, the sooner you can have all those many many rights that have been taken away from you, back.

[Guest Shalomar]

The whole reason to study history is to examine the mistakes to improve the future. Those who forget history... you know the rest.As far as I know, no one has sworn an oath to defend me or you. The oath is to uphoild and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. As I have said before, even with its dire strategic position, Isreal has backed off from the use of torture. Even when it seems a democracy must fight with one hand behind its back, it still has the upper hand- only if it TRULY remains a democracy.What makes you so sure certain rights MUST be surrendered, and they WILL be given back? Would love to see your proof. What is the definition of winning? The US is not perfect, women and blacks just got the right to vote embarrassingly recently, but at least we've been moving in the right direction. What is the advantage to going backwards?To say the situation is different now with Al-Queida and therefore the means must be different is to employ the same logic Germany used to defend unrestricted Submarine Warfare. But of course, God is on our side, if not the Rule of Law.With your line of reasoning, why not lock up everyone with ties to tobacco companies? They do much more damage, financially emotionally and have killed more people than Al-Queida ever has. Best Regards, Donny

[KevinAu 441]

>>What makes you so sure certain rights MUST be surrendered, and they WILL be given back?>>Best Regards, DonnyCommon sense, and history.

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Ah, yes, we must concede certain rights, consolidate power and sacrifice now for a better tomoorow... That's a common theme thru history, but Hitlers and Stalins etc... are the inevitable result. Did you say common sense?Remember, it isn't just Al-Queida spewing propaganda these days...Edit: At the risk of rambling, it is a scientific fact that the earth will not be around forever. Therefore, Anyone, Anyone, who believes the human soul to be immortal and advocates or participates in the killing or torture of others to preserve a country, their property and ESPECIALLY their religion is misled, a hypocrite or worse IMHO.Best Regards, Donny

[KevinAu 441]

So if you think President Bush is going to declare himself "Maximum Leader" because of the Patriot Act and end the democratic system, I would suspect your common sense is suspect.

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!No, but the simple fact is that the result could be the same. The powers that really run nations these days are not elected. The ones who serve in office are bought and sold by them, regardless of affiliation. In any case, there were clear warnings before 9/11, as someone working in an airport and mingling with pilots I know firsthand, it was airport gossip about what Al-Queida was interested in flight schools for. I was hired over a year before 9/11, and a question on my FAA ramp certification was "how can security be improved?" There are still no signifigant vehicle barriers around most large U.S. airports. It's a good idea for agencies to coordinate, I am not throwing the Patriot Act baby out with the bathwater. But let's uphold the law, not suspend it.

[KevinAu 441]

No, it is not a fact, but your opinion that the result could be the same. And a flawed opinion not based on history either. Laws are not static objects, they change with different times and situations. Habeas Corpus suspended, Alien and Sedition Act passed, Japanese people intered, Eastern seaboard blacked out...all these things done in the past. Have any of these things ended democracy for us today?

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!The Japanes internment has been acknlweledged as grossly unconstitutional, and apoligised for. The average American is more likely to be killed by their spouse or a drunk driver than a member of Al-Queida. If the government has such a good case against an american citizen being a member of Al-Queida, they should try them. Period. The risk to civil justice- it is a fact that jurors, judges, poilicemen, witnesses and prosecutors are being targeted more often these days, not by Al-Queida. That is a serious concern that should be adressed, but why use it as an excuse to suspend civil liberties?If being locked up without a formal charge and without trial is not the end of democracy, what is???Since when do we have "designated Free Speech Zones?" The whole country usta be one...Best Regards, Donny

[KevinAu 441]

>Donny AKA Shalomar>Fly 2 ROCKS!!!>>The average American is>more likely to be killed by their spouse or a drunk driver>than a member of Al-Queida. Well, I guess that proves it. Terrorism is no longer a threat. The government should refocus on providing homeland security funds to MADD.>>If being locked up without a formal charge and without trial>is not the end of democracy, what is???>Not being able to vote.>Since when do we have "designated Free Speech Zones?" The>whole country usta be one...>What are you talking about? Guantanamo? Guantanamo is not in this country.>Best Regards, Donny