I know one thing - if I were in charge of a terrorist organization I'd be looking for a way to funnel money into and influence a few of the big civil libertarian organizations throughout North America.

Yes,but they are, in the colleges and university's.We have living here in the US,and just like in the UK,a Lotta people who don't like democracy.When I was around, after the attack on Pear Harbor,The US locked up those who MAY,pose a threat.Today why you can't even identify a potential terrorists.In Fla. this,Arab professor was raising money ,on campus,and sending it to terrorists to launch attacks against the Israelis.The outrage is many who gave him the money were Students!Most places of worship,mosques, are hot beds of anti-American activity.Same in England.But some here are more concerned about their rights of the Moslem's involved in this,,then our lives.How quick most have forgotten 9/11.What kind of a wake up call do we need??If we approached WW2,the way we have been fighting the war on terrorism,why we would be singing ###### marching songs now.Our futile conversations here ain't gonna change much,just listen to some of our very Liberal senators,and "DA UN" remember them??SORRY I GET A BIT UPSET,AND BLAB TO MUCH,BEEN AROUND TOO LONG,,SEEN THIS STUFF BEFORE,TOO MANY TIMES, I WORRY ABOUT ALL THE KIDS AND THEIR FUTURE VIN "LETS GO FLYING THINGS SEEM CLEARER UP THERE"

It's a fine line that's being walked when it comes to the Gitmo detainees. I don't buy the line that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I like the post which describes the terrorist mentality as the pop culture of the day for those drawn into it. They aren't fighting for a freedom that you or I would accept--unless you consider treating your woman like a pack animal "freedom". They are fighting for power--the power to force their version of Nazism, complete with mind control, on the Middle East and everyone else in their way. Nobody should be fooled to think that they are interested in ending "U.S. Imperialism". Unless one considers the Taliban a model of "freedom."I doubt anyone here would argue that WWII was just and our fighting was needed to rid the world of a really bad dude. But we didn't win it by "being the nice guy" and we very nearly lost it. Civilians were knowingly bombed, both in Germany and Japan. Certainly, "illegal" under "rules" of war. But our enemy did the same. We had to suspend our beliefs in order to have a chance to resume them again after the battles were fought. We were fighting for our lives. Just as we are today. I don't care if someone plays the numbers game and says that terrorists have killed less than drunk drivers, cancer, gang bangers, whatever. Point is, they kill for the sake of killing, not for the sake of winning a strategic objective. The plight of those whose freedom they are supposedly fighting for is much worse today than before 9/11--why is that? The only risk in all this is that if we give an inch as society, someone may take a mile. If rights in Gitmo are ignored and our Constitution stops at our borders, someone may take it a step futher. No one who has been alive the last fifty years can deny that power seeks power. We need to keep aware of that and keep that power in check, lest the "Gitmo doctrine" be applied to us the way McCarthy turned Communism into a way of suppressing good and honest people in the 50's.That said, the timing of this thread to coincide with the anniversary of 9/11 is poor in my opinion. I have said it before and will say it again, that either directly or indirectly linking 9/11 to empathy for their "cause" is wrong and is an afront to those who died that day. There are times and places for open discussion--and I waited several days before responding because the timing of this "concern" for the Gitmo detainees left me seething.-John

Very interesting thread here... Everyone seems to have valid arguments, however, there have also been a lot of historical errors/misjudgements. I cannot possibly see how you can equate hippies to terrorists. Being a terrorist isn't a fad; caring more about peace and looking for truth instead of just blindly listening to your government isn't a fad(well, if it is, then forget the US being a decent country.) As for Communism, it's not really a current factor. All McCarthy did was turn the US into a fear based nation. It's still evident today, that's how people are winning elections. As for the original point of this thread--according to John Locke, each man is given: life, liberty, and property. Being held in prison without a trial is against everything that the US was originally founded for.http://www.kthxdone.com/images/kw_ft.jpgKen Weik [link:maam.org|MAAM-SIM][link:library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=root&SearchTerm=kenneth+weik&Sort=Added&ScanMode=0&Go=Change+View]My AFCADs

Not to belittle the hippy movement, but terrorism is a popular youth movement just as peace and love was in the sixties. It is assinine, it is sick, and it is demented. But it is what it is. Arab kids aspire to be terrorists because it is what they believe is a greater good that will give their life meaning and greatness. Certainly it boggles the Western mind, but you must remember that the Arab kids are not Westerners like you. What may be senseless to you, is honorable to them. Terrorism's popularity grew from the nineties thanks to Arab media that popularized martyrdom and the spread of Waahabiism, which is to the Muslim religion what the KKK is to Christianity. Basically, terrorists are a bunch of Arab skinhead punk kids. They have no political objective, just a driving force of hatred and desire to commit the act of killing. Terrorism is their pop culture. They sing songs about killing. We sing songs about love. They lionize suicide bombers. We lionize NYC firefighters. They preach death to people. We preach understanding and acceptance. This is what few people in the West understand. People erroneously project western values upon these people and cannot understand why they do the things they do. People who do not understand the true force behind terrorism confuse the issue with their own fears of their own government, foolishly believe there is some sort of negotiable place, and try to handicap the fight against this enemy. Our enemy is not our government, it is the terrorist.

I can see terrorism being a popular youth movement among mislead muslims. As for being a popular youth movement, that's it. But I wouldn't even bother to compare the two any more than that. The enemy is the terrorist, but it doesn't give the government the right to put more restrictions on us.http://www.kthxdone.com/images/kw_ft.jpgKen Weik [link:maam.org|MAAM-SIM][link:library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=root&SearchTerm=kenneth+weik&Sort=Added&ScanMode=0&Go=Change+View]My AFCADs

>it doesn't give the>government the right to put more restrictions on us.>Ken WeikI'm not going to restart this thread from square one here. This thread has run a course further than a plain dumb opinion statement like that. You should have been here yesterday.

"I'm not going to restart this thread from square one here. This thread has run a course further than a plain dumb opinion statement like that. You should have been here yesterday."And I think you need to reflect on that comment. Ken's comment wasn't out of line, but yours is. First and final warning.-John

KenI am not sure who is equating hippies to terrorists here. I wasn't and I didn't find a post in the thread that did. My point about communism amd McCarthy is a very important one for one of the reasons you state--it's bad enough in time of war we hold people in prison without trial. That's a consequence of war, not one I think anyone here is happy with, but a consequence regardless and it's naive to think there's such a thing as a "perfect" war where it doesn't happen. We as a nation and western culture at large are at war.But McCarthy's era stretched into a very scary situation--the consequence of politicians using labels like communism and terrorism to gain office. Crimes were literally invented, essentially placing people in custody without legal charges. Fear of communism crossed the line into a means of keeping people in check and a fear of terrorism can be manipulated into the same. So we need to be honest on both fronts--there's risks to our way of life when you sacrifice "a few" for the "greater good". We should at least keep a watchful eye on what happens at Gitmo as we are all responsible if we are caught by our own greedy politicians while asleep at the wheel.No one can come into the forum and call anyone wrong here. It's a sorry fact that in war there are really no winners--just survivors and we need to have an animal instinct to survive given that our enemy will show no mercy. And there are two enemies in this war--those who are the terrorists, and those who are manipulating the situation for their own gain. -John

Thanks for this great piece.Of course what you say is true.This movement is more than the Nationalism which consumed ###### Germany in the west,and Japan in the east.They have no standing armed forces.Confronting them decisively is almost impossible.They do have targets however,Israel,and the whole western world. We are vulnerable because we are a free society,and our borders are open.The fanatical religious aspect of this is very important to consider.We all heard how Mr.Atta was to be greeted by ALLAH,and all those virgins.They do have spiritual leaders who motivate killing all infidels,for the greater glory of Allah.All this coupled with failed mid east society's,poverty,religious fanaticism,growing populations,is a boiling cauldron of absolute disaster for the world.Factor in our fuel sources,and our desire for stability in the area.Its like sliding down a razor and not trying to bleed on anyone.I do believe in our time,possibly sooner,certainly after the next successful terrorist attack here at home, a Truman like decision may very well be made.The advocates who are sympathetic to these people,with western morals trying to be applied ,will not be a factor.Those like the ACLU,and others ,who are more concerned with a terrorists right to kill us,will become unpopular.The NY TIMES,may eventually agree they have been on the wrong track.Some of our greatest War leaders have been liberals in the US,in a time of threat,all Politicians are Americans First.Like I said,I fear for our children, and our way of life.The two great ponds will not protect us any longer.Our cities,and infrastructure are now prime targets.Where are our towers?I do hope they live in our memory and hearts. Thanx again VIN

Hey John,I'm sorry, I've been reading too many threads. I thought someone had made the point of saying: "the whole terrorism thing is fad, young kids like it." I understand that this is war and that there are certain things that we must do to survive. However, its a matter of principle. My fear is that the government might be holding some people when they shouldn't be, so the government needs to do their absolute best to guarantee a safe society while not wrongfully imprisoning anyone. That's all that anyone can ask. As for McCarthy, I completely agree with you. Terrorism is a real threat, but the focus on terrorism seems to be more on politics than getting the job done. I had to write a paper on comparing the Vietnam War to the War in Iraq and there are some differences, but many similarities. It's rather interesting to compare the two, but what is most important is to keep an open eye on the terrorists and on our own government's actions. (If you are a US citizen that is.) John you've made a lot of solid points (especially your last one): no one wins in a war.Kevin - Yeah, it's my opinion and although you might think its wrong... Your immediate tendency to attack me because I disagree with you, leads me to not think so highly. Nothing personal, but I'm given the right to an opinion.http://www.kthxdone.com/images/kw_ft.jpgKen Weik [link:maam.org|MAAM-SIM][link:library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=root&SearchTerm=kenneth+weik&Sort=Added&ScanMode=0&Go=Change+View]My AFCADs

What Al-Queida is doing is unjustifiable, and, with proper coordination between agencies, stoppable. Remember all the warnings that could have been heeded before that awful day.A man was arrested over twenty years ago on a drug possession charge in Italy. He serves his time, straightens himself out, marries a beatiful woman and settles down in the U.S. After living here for years, but not being a citizen, he returns to Italy to visit relatives. Bescause of that drug charge he served his time for he is held in federal custody as an undesirable for over three months. Had he not been a chef at a popular restaraunt, and had the media not stepped in, he could still not have seen his three children again till this day.As long as they can vote from their cell, where they are being held without trial, some people seem to think Democracy will survive. The former Soviet Union had over 90% voter turnout thru communism, they must have been the most democratic nation on the face of the planet.Even if the power to lock up American citizens without trial or formal charges- here, not Gitmo- is upheld, and that power is used with wisdom and perfect precision during this administation, it is wide open for abuse later.If you want to support our troops, make a cardboard sign with no stick that says this: GIVE OUR TROOPS IN COMBAT COMBAT PAYStand somewhere along Bush's motorcade route, and hold it up high for Bush and the cameras to see. Observe how quickly you are asked to move to a "free speech zone", and how quickly you are arrested if you refuse. Shouldn't you be allowed to support your troops anywhere you want???Best Regards, Donny

Donny,There is a definite tension between preserving civil liberties and fighting terrorism. There aren't any simple answers, unfortunately.Like you, I'm alarmed that many American's don't seem to see the consequences of preemptive millitary action and the suspension of habeas corpus. When people are frightened, they do and support things that they otherwise wouldn't do or support.Many Americans currently seem to think that the end justifies the means. Ironically, the errosion of civil liberties is one of the goals of terrorism.John

>> The former Soviet Union had over 90% voter turnout>thru communism, they must have been the most democratic nation>on the face of the planet.>>:-) :-) I'll think you'll find that North Korea and Saddam's Iraq have, and had, similar figures.Maybe I was missing some irony?Whatever, thanks for putting a big smile on my face today.Greetings from Poland, where we continue to celebrate 25 years since the founding of Solidarnosc.http://online.vatsimindicators.net/916312/3.png

Interesting debate.However the American people have always seen the reality of danger to them much more clearer than some who will debate the abstract ad infinitum.It is the people who bear the burden of concepts gone wrong,by intellectual thinkers who often are not in contact with reality.Its the peoples blood,and lives that are in the forefront conflict,and they are not contemplating some concept, best left for when the job is done.In NY where I lived before moving to Fla,it is absolute against the law to defend oneself in his home against an intruder.You can be held responsible for endangering the perpetrator.In Fla ,,you can shoot to kill any one who enters your home for the purpose of a criminal act.I like the Fla law.Further it is the people in elections,choice of arguments,and choice of whats good for me attitude, who ultimately set the course of a country.Many others disagree,thats democracy.The ACLU, uses the system to further their agenda,including ,striking out any thing religious,reveling information about things in the war were conducting,which will cause harm to our people over there.Some if not the majority disagree,but it is there right to pursue these agendas.It troubles me to read,and hear these,standard's of behavior,in all areas ,including global warming,environment ,energy use, that we are locked in to ,while no country in the word in the world adheres too, except for there own interest,and not ours. And yet we try to set the course as a world leader.To no avail however,as witnessed by the UN.Finlay at the risk as being branded as a right wing extremest,I suggest further inquiry be made into the McCarthy thing. With his NON Chamberlain like attitude to American security ,in that world of nuclear annihilation,it was reassuring then.For there was many who thought communism was OK,and the future for America, just like the American ###### party thought ,that was OK Or the KKK,which was around then, and many thought that was OK.ask Sen. Byrd.I was around then and remember well.You may be surprised to find out history may have proved him correct in many areas.You must admit the liberal press would never acknowledge these facts. Ya know, I would never have believed that a forum such as this one,is allowing the luxury of healthy conversation to be discussed like it is here.Truly, it reminds of a bunch of guys in a hanger,on a rainy day, BSing and really resolving nothing,except having a good time, and trying to show that not only can we fly planes, but to demonstrate that we can BL AA BL AA, BL AA,and drink coffee,and eat a donut, at the same time, which is not an easy task. Thank you all VIN