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Guest Erick_Cantu

A scary New World

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Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Well, now according to a federal judge an American citizen with known ties to Al-Queida can be imprisoned indefinitely without being charged. So just how tenuous are those ties going to be eventually? And how long before the same methods at Guantanomo Bay are used here, as long as a judge can be convinced there is evidence of a link??? From the start, we have slipped into doing just what "they" want us to do, abandoning our principles to save them. The Gitmo detainees are not eligible for POW status cuz officially we are not at war. Then they are not eligible for civil trials because they are foreign nationals captured in a time of war. HUH??? Has the Rule of Law become this much of a joke so quickly? Isreal has one of the better reasons for torture, a bomb may be ticking and they have to find out where. But they have recently stepped back from it even when innocents are at stake, because a power like that is so subject to abuse, and the results are a lot of people who were tortured falsely or are more inspired to fight on because they, their friend or loved one was tortured. And individuals under torture may tell you things you want to hear, but they could be an innocent trying to end his or her pain, or stalling with disinformation. A big reason for those elements of the Geneva accord in the first place. People have been released after a signifigant time in Cuba because it is finally realised they had no ties to Al-Queida. Bet my bottom dollar they, or some who hear their story, will be making tracks to join up though!One man's terrorist has always been another man's freedom fighter or hero, and turning them to martyrs, giving them further incentives and an arena for jihad seem to be our major accomplishments in the "war on terror" since the time after Afghanistan was freed. If the British had won one of their wars against what were called terrorists at the time, the state of Isreal would not exist. If not for the PLO, would there be talk of a state for Palestine? Even when a democracy fights with a hand behind its back, it will still have the upper hand- if it truly remains a democracy.Best Regards, Donny

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ah yes, the glorious freedom fighters who attacked and caused great harm to the Great AmeriKan Satan on 11 September 2001.They should be remembered as martyrs to the Cause of liberating the world from AmeriKan opression and the glorious struggle towards the Khalifate.

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>Donny AKA Shalomar>Fly 2 ROCKS!!!>>From the start, we>have slipped into doing just what "they" want us to do,>abandoning our principles to save them. >"They" don't "want us to do" anything. They just want to kill us.>One man's terrorist has always been another man's freedom>fighter or hero, and turning them to martyrs, giving them>further incentives and an arena for jihad seem to be our>major accomplishments in the "war on terror" since the time>after Afghanistan was freed. >Best Regards, DonnyThere is no freedom fighting here. Jihad is merely the young Arab male's hip-hop. Young disaffected Americans in the sixties had their flower power and Woodstock. Disaffected young black kids have their gangsta life. Disaffected white kids have skateboarding and grunge. The fad these days for the disaffected young Arabs is to kill people and blow themselves up. That's just their pop culture. They just wannabe cool martyrs.Lock him up and throw the key away.

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Don't lock them up, execute them in public.The Saudis do it with a sword in a public square, then burry the body in an unmarked grave. Efficient, cheap, and noone's going to hijack an aircraft and demand the release of their incarcerated comrades.

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How many tens of thousands of people die of lung cancer every year? If the right to smoke were taken away, or individuals with ties to tobacco companies were held without trial, it would be a different situation. Regardless of the merits of this one case, for an American citizen to be locked up for three years without a formal charge is a serious situation. If he explains himself to a jury as per his rights and is found guilty of what the government is insinuating, THEN lock him up and throw away the key. Don't you see the slippery slope? My question is valid, how long before there are Gitmos set up on American soil for American citizens American power can conjur a link to Al-Queida with?We apoligised recently, and admitted it was unconstitutional to lock up supposed Japanese sympathisers during WWII.I never claimed they actually are freedom fighters, if they can paint themselves into maryrs and heros they would happy with that. But a lot of our policies, including the innocents who have wound up at Gitmo and been released up to a year later, are helping them do just that.There were many people in the U.S. who supported the King of England thru the revolution. We were in far more dire situations startegically than now for decades after, but no one was locked up WITHOUT TRIAL for supporting the King or the Indians. The book "Trading with the Enemy", forget the author, but it's a good read. Standard Oil and Ford motor company provided substantial assistance WELL INTO THE START OF DECLARED HOSTILITIES with the Germans, going so far as to coordinate with the U-boats as to which ships were carrying their cargoes for them. Think we'll ever see some penalties for that imposed?But a few of what many call Yahoos, Cowards, Losers etc... we taught how to fight against the Soviet Union, and armed in the first place, turn against us and you're willing to kiss your rights goodbye? Those who would be willing to give up a little freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security. Our founding Fathers were too smart to do that, that's where the whole concept of inalienable rights came in that we all agreed to when we signed up for this free country thing.The whole aproach to counterterrorism reminds me of bombing missions that cost millions against sampans that can be built for thousands. I won't bother with all the obvious stuff they've missed on the defensive end, but the best offense involves a good, long hard at history. There is evidence Iranians are tiring of clergy rule, but why did they choose it in the first place? It seemed a better alternative at the time than "The Friend of Nine U.S. Presidents".The jig may soon be up in Saudi Arabia too, an ignored/glossed over powderkeg for past decades.Best Regards, Donny

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Nothing can excuse 9/11 or any such acts, and I have no qualms with death for proven murderers, but how do you know that any given inmate sitting in prison at Gitmo for the last x years is guilty? Because the Administration says so? As a foreigner looking on - I wept for the Red White And Blue back then. Perhaps I am ignorant, no, without doubt I am ignorant, but again, as a foreigner looking on, with the greatest of respect - the sheer apparent lack of accountability at Gitmo sticks in my craw.It's said justice ought not only to be done, but also seen to be done - seems to apply imhoregards,MarkXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256

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That is probably the most rambling post I have read here in a long time. You bring up many wide and varied "wrongs" of many different situations and time periods all lumped together in a few paragraphs. Let me try and bring some clarity to this. There are people who want to kill you. "Shalomar" sounds kind of Jewish to me. If you are a Jew, I would bet that your throat would not last more than 15 seconds if you walked into a cell at Gitmo. The inmates there would cut it with their fingernails. The blood draining from your neck would make a truely slippery slope. There are mean people in this world that are out there. Why not let the people who's job it is, who swore an oath, to protect you from them, do that job? Why insist that they have to do that job with their hands tied behind their back? The sooner we win, the sooner you can have all those many many rights that have been taken away from you, back.

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The whole reason to study history is to examine the mistakes to improve the future. Those who forget history... you know the rest.As far as I know, no one has sworn an oath to defend me or you. The oath is to uphoild and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. As I have said before, even with its dire strategic position, Isreal has backed off from the use of torture. Even when it seems a democracy must fight with one hand behind its back, it still has the upper hand- only if it TRULY remains a democracy.What makes you so sure certain rights MUST be surrendered, and they WILL be given back? Would love to see your proof. What is the definition of winning? The US is not perfect, women and blacks just got the right to vote embarrassingly recently, but at least we've been moving in the right direction. What is the advantage to going backwards?To say the situation is different now with Al-Queida and therefore the means must be different is to employ the same logic Germany used to defend unrestricted Submarine Warfare. But of course, God is on our side, if not the Rule of Law.With your line of reasoning, why not lock up everyone with ties to tobacco companies? They do much more damage, financially emotionally and have killed more people than Al-Queida ever has. Best Regards, Donny

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>>What makes you so sure certain rights MUST be surrendered, and they WILL be given back?>>Best Regards, DonnyCommon sense, and history.

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Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Ah, yes, we must concede certain rights, consolidate power and sacrifice now for a better tomoorow... That's a common theme thru history, but Hitlers and Stalins etc... are the inevitable result. Did you say common sense?Remember, it isn't just Al-Queida spewing propaganda these days...Edit: At the risk of rambling, it is a scientific fact that the earth will not be around forever. Therefore, Anyone, Anyone, who believes the human soul to be immortal and advocates or participates in the killing or torture of others to preserve a country, their property and ESPECIALLY their religion is misled, a hypocrite or worse IMHO.Best Regards, Donny

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So if you think President Bush is going to declare himself "Maximum Leader" because of the Patriot Act and end the democratic system, I would suspect your common sense is suspect.

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Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!No, but the simple fact is that the result could be the same. The powers that really run nations these days are not elected. The ones who serve in office are bought and sold by them, regardless of affiliation. In any case, there were clear warnings before 9/11, as someone working in an airport and mingling with pilots I know firsthand, it was airport gossip about what Al-Queida was interested in flight schools for. I was hired over a year before 9/11, and a question on my FAA ramp certification was "how can security be improved?" There are still no signifigant vehicle barriers around most large U.S. airports. It's a good idea for agencies to coordinate, I am not throwing the Patriot Act baby out with the bathwater. But let's uphold the law, not suspend it.

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No, it is not a fact, but your opinion that the result could be the same. And a flawed opinion not based on history either. Laws are not static objects, they change with different times and situations. Habeas Corpus suspended, Alien and Sedition Act passed, Japanese people intered, Eastern seaboard blacked out...all these things done in the past. Have any of these things ended democracy for us today?

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Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!The Japanes internment has been acknlweledged as grossly unconstitutional, and apoligised for. The average American is more likely to be killed by their spouse or a drunk driver than a member of Al-Queida. If the government has such a good case against an american citizen being a member of Al-Queida, they should try them. Period. The risk to civil justice- it is a fact that jurors, judges, poilicemen, witnesses and prosecutors are being targeted more often these days, not by Al-Queida. That is a serious concern that should be adressed, but why use it as an excuse to suspend civil liberties?If being locked up without a formal charge and without trial is not the end of democracy, what is???Since when do we have "designated Free Speech Zones?" The whole country usta be one...Best Regards, Donny

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>Donny AKA Shalomar>Fly 2 ROCKS!!!>>The average American is>more likely to be killed by their spouse or a drunk driver>than a member of Al-Queida. Well, I guess that proves it. Terrorism is no longer a threat. The government should refocus on providing homeland security funds to MADD.>>If being locked up without a formal charge and without trial>is not the end of democracy, what is???>Not being able to vote.>Since when do we have "designated Free Speech Zones?" The>whole country usta be one...>What are you talking about? Guantanamo? Guantanamo is not in this country.>Best Regards, Donny

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Ah, so you equate the right to light up a fag to having the right to hijack an aircraft with dozens of passengers and fly it into the side of an office building with thousands of people in it?

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In time of war suspicion of being an enemy agent is sufficient ground to remove a person from society for the duration of the hostilities.The entire world is currently in a state of war against your terrorist friends, and therefore terrorist sympathisers and supporters can and should be removed from society by any means possible. There can be only one outcome to this war: the total elimination of terrorists and their sympathisers from the gene pool, as anything else will allow them to breed back.

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Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!You are going a little far with "my friends the terrorists". I am trying to give some perspective, in their best year so far Al Queida killed fewer Americans than drunk drivers. If you really want to suspend civil liberties to deal with a threat, you would do better locking up those with ties to tobacoo companies without trial. How many people die each year from smoking??? It's the same mentality that makes people fear shark attack, the truth is sharks kill less people in the entire world than collisions with deer deer do each year in the US. Yes, the sky is falling, Al-Queida's gonna get us, we didn't suspend civil liberties when the British burned Washington but we gotta do it now... I see the light. Right.Free speech zones: Those who demonstrate in support of Bush these days can do it anywhere they want along his motorcade route, but there are special zones for those demonstrating against. Get out much?There are major parralels between the 60's and today. An undeclared war, an increasingly polarised nation, political dynasties (bush/Kennedy)- wait a second, that Kennedy attempt at a dynasty ended in bloodshed incited by the far right, now it's reversed, the Right is the RED White And Blue Defenders Of the Republic. Remember the cheering schoolchildren??? Johnson was waiting for his chance to expand the Vietnam conflict, a sonarman mistook waves and the echo from his rudder for boats and torpedos and BINGO... Can you say Downing Street documents, oops there really was no link between Saddam and Bin Laden, but the Brits decided to go for it anyway. A minutes study will reveal their ideologies are totally different. Now Freepers are posting comments like "if it comes to civil war, no problem cuz we have all the guns..." That's just fine and dandy.Too far right and too far left do the same things.It's okay if we torture , kill, or lock people up without a trial but not them. You've convinced me. We will triumphantly chorus, "we have met the enemy, and it is us."It is open to debate whether there is a Supreme Being who judges individuals, but not that History judges nations. Mcarthyism may seem tame compared to the road we are treading now.I will say again, since the earth itself is transient, I consider it an abomination for any individual who believes the soul to be immortal to advocate or participate in the torture or killing of other humans to defend a country, property and especially their religion. That goes for Bin Laden, BTW. "My friends the terrorists?" Pulease.Best regards (still)Donny

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"Al-Queida has killed fewer Americans than drunk drivers." That is a great line. If the terrorists ever become a bureacracy with a PR guy, that would be a great line for their spokesperson. You know, I'll bet more Jews died from smoking than were exterminated by a really bad dude. Wouldn't that make a great line too?You obviously have a lot of angst with the world, but why do you empathise more with the terrorists than your own countrymen trying to defend this country?

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Terrorism will NEVER totally be eliminated. Terrorists run on hate, a human emotion. No man or woman has the ability to remove a human emotion from everyone in the world. NO man or woman in history has been able to eliminate hate, as recorded history shows terrorism has existed for thousands of years. This is just an impossible thing to do. To eliminate hate and terrorism, the planet and all human life that lives on it would have to be wiped out totally. What is gained then? Game Over. What needs to be done is to defend ones self from it. It is NO nations job to seek out and try to destroy it, while leaving themselves wide open, as we have done here in the U.S.. Don

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"Al Queida killed fewer Americans than drunk drivers..."so far.

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Once again the barbarians are at the gates,how comfortable we all are,cloaked in the fist amendment.Reminds me of other history's,eat drink ,be merry.Don't worry it can't happen here.But it does and will happen again.It is the termite mentality that eats away the foundation of a society. a really bad dude,Tojo,Stalin,M's tung or however ya call him,would really accommodate most of free speech. Yes "KRAUTS,JAPS and others" were the enemy then.It took a lot of effort ,American,and world effort to convert them.Air power primarily. So now we "PLAY" aviation,marveling at those military aircraft.Did you forget that they were meant to kill those who would enslave us? Drunks kill many ,I read here.So does farming,Crab fishing, and falling off ladders.Megalomaniacs kill and have killed many "many millions",intionally,and by design,sanctioned by its people. We lost well over 100,000 boys in planes over Europe alone. They cudda filled the ROSE BOWEL That was no simulator game,it was for real.Most of them younger than the average simmer here.For some , instead of bad mouthing your country,try to say something good.For those non Americans in Europe and Asia,try to straighten up your own troubles,before you heap abuse on us here. Does doing that abusive stuff make them feel like some "SIM" hero by association with terrorists? Ya cant simulate being a hero, ya gotta do it. So hide in the anonymity of a forum lke this. We bailed you out enough.There are too many graves over there attesting that fact.Maby some of you guys should acquaint yourselves with them.Try saying thanks,or is that to American.Is it a scary world? you betcha,and only the strong will survive. VIN "TO DEFEND THE PEACE PREPARE FOR WAR"

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Donny, Ho! Back up a bit here, I know you are passionate about your position but please consider this, Al Queida has vowed the destruction of the United States by any means possible so you must take such a threat seriously. If they could get a hold of a nuke I can assure you that at some point they would level a city so you have to fight them on the same level as you would an entire country, you can not belittle them by saying well they have only killed X amount of people so far. Ok, I am one who believes in personal liberty above all else and I am saddedned to see how much of it we keep losing in the US and sickened to see how little most others in the world have (even if they think they are free). I would like to know from you straight up how you would propose to fight this war and protect the citizens from Al Queida's promise to bring us and our freedom down. How do you protect the citizens of a nation when those that intend us harm are allowed to roam our streets freely? Lets go back to World War II for a moment, what would happen if someone saw a German army soldier walking down main street of your home town? He would be arrested and detained to protect our country, right? Would you allow that same soldier to roam free because under the laws of the US he has done nothing wrong, yet? Would you wait until he commits a crime before arresting him? The same applies today except that their is no clear destinction of who is an enemy and who is not, they do not wear uniforms, they try to blend in. We, the US and it's citizens, do not want to arrest and hold anyone who is not guilty, you are proof of that, but this is a very difficult time and it is not easy to fight this war. I do think that there is room for improvement in how we handle this but you have to remember that for each person we lock up there is a decent amount of suspicion about their involvement with the enemy. One bad thing about being a civlian is that we do not get to see the facts that the government has about the locked up people but I can assure you that those are dangerous people. I do not have the answer for how we should best handle this but I do know that letting many of those people roam free would probably mean the death of thousands of my fellow country men, friends and family. Freedom and rights should never be extended to anyone who wishes to take those sacred items (freedom and life) away from another. There is always a point where for the good of the nation in extreme circumstances that personal liberties need to be curtailed to save the lives of many, I don't like it but it is true. Here in the US every time we have crossed that line we have returned those freedoms when the danger has passed and there is nothing to indicate there is any difference now. In our system and with our people don't be fooled into thinking that we would put up with any less, we will take our rights back if need be. I would be on the front lines, that I can promise. If I am not mistaken we do have a bit of a problem here because the law does not really provide for action in a case like this, where a group not a country has declared war on us. I think that we are probably trying to do the best that we can given the limitations of the law but we have to protect ourselves. Donny I am sure that you are not proposing that we allow those that are jailed to roam free are you? Anyway, I would really like to know how you would handle this, how you would protect our country, freedom, and citizens against those that have sworn to bring us down. I mean that question in an honest and sincere way, maybe you do have a better way and only through communication can others learn. Please lay out your ideas as to how you would fight this war. Just to make sure you know my stand point, I do have some reservations about how we handle some things but I do not know a better way. War is ugly and sadly the only way to win is to do some very ugly things before they are done to you. Al Queida has declared war on us and to me the only choice we have is to destroy them before they do the same to us. I understand they probably can not destroy us literally but economically would produce the same result so we have to do what we must to ensure our survival. Best Regards,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

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Remember Kerry and his cronies putting opponents in concentration camps and steel cages during the DNC in Boston last year?That's another of your friends and his ideas about "freedom". Noone being allowed to say anything, anywhere, unless it agrees with Hanoi John's ideas isn't freedom, it's dictatorship.Yes, you would fit in well with your terrorist friends. Hanoi John for president, Osama as secretary of the interior and chairman of the KGB, you as secretary of indoctrination and propaganda.Would be a very free USA indeed...McCarthy was in fact quite right, communism was (and still is) the greatest danger to democracy the world has ever seen.The current Islamofascists you love so much are communists, their Islamic ideals are only a front to get them support from the illiterate masses in the Middle East.

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How many nights a week do you do standup? Man, get a freaking education! That last paragraph is DEAD wrong! Islamics are NOT communists! LMFAO! Read a book, please!Don

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