Yes I read that and tried it. The gauge showed up but didn't work and there were no sounds. I followed your instructions. So, you are saying that the pushback worked and the sounds of the pilot speaking also worked, right?

Yes, everything worked. Here are the relevant sections from the panel.cfg file in the panel.FETN directory. You may want to change the path to the sounds as well. But I tried both ./ and ././ and it worked either way. Make sure the sounds are there, though. Does the taxispeed portion work? hmm, you know what else, I also added the second 20 in the Gauge07.[Window Titles]Window00=Main PanelWindow01=TaxispeedWindow02=Radio StackWindow03=GPSWindow04=ClockWindow05=DMEWindow06=AirspeedWindow07=AltimeterWindow08=ADFWindow09=VOR2Window10=IFR PanelWindow11=KLN90Window12=FUELSTATWindow13=HSIWindow14=VOR1[Window10]file=TB_IFR3x.BMP size_mm=1024window_size_ratio=1.000 position=7visible=0ident=890window_size= 1.000, 1.000window_pos= 0.000, 0.000[Window01]Background_color=16,16,16 size_mm=239,65window_size_ratio=1.000 position=0visible=0ident=330window_size= 0.30, 0.110window_pos= 0.000, 0.830gauge00=rcb_Groundhandling4!PushbackDisplay, 160,2,74,61gauge01=rcb_Groundhandling4!TaxispeedNoToeBrakes, 0,2,64,61gauge02=rcb_Groundhandling4!BrakePressure, 67,2,44,61gauge03=rcb_Groundhandling4!ParkingBrakeSwitch, 114,2,44,30gauge04=rcb_Groundhandling4!AutoTaxiAfterLanding, 114,33,44,30gauge05=rcb_Groundhandling4!PushbackStates, 0,0,20,20gauge06=rcb_Groundhandling4!BrakeSound, 0,0,20,20gauge07=GH_Sound!dsd_xml_sound3, 0,0,20,20, ./Sound/Groundhandling/Sound.inigauge08=Turbo_Beaver!Taxispd_X, 69,0,40,30Make sure that you read the directions on how to operate the gauge. The engine must be running, and the brakes engaged. Then press the pushback button and everything works just like the directions say. You can choose a different window to replace. I'll send an update when I create a light switch panel. It is really helpful for taxiing.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

I have no problem taxiing. I don't even want it for that. I just thought the pushback sounds would be a little more realistic. I will get it to work eventually.

Thank you for this excellent discussion on engine control! I would like to have exact numbers, though from any turbo beaver pilots out there. But thanks to the above, I can hopefully develop my own.As far as the better view is concerned, comparing pictures of Beavers, the Turbo version seems to have about a 2 foot extension of the cockpit in front of the wings, hence the extra window is actually what's left of the original side window. I don't know why so much more so than others, but this plane is a blast to fly.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

You're very welcome! I don't get to show off much, but this is my area of expertise, I guess. :-shyI neglected your other question, about numbers, but I can tell you that PT6 airplanes are flown by reference to the torquemeter and ITT, with a side glance to the prop, as far as setting required power. Just like a piston engine, horsepower in a turboprop is a function of RPM combined with torque (of which manifold pressure is a more-or-less direct clue). If we wanted to get really technical, we'd discuss how the MP / torque relationship changes with density altitude, so that the MP for a certain % cruise power setting at one altitude is not exactly the same as for that same % power at another.However, we won't need to get that technical, because in a turboprop, the relationship between HP, torque, and RPM is a physical constant that does not change with any variables available in the natural world."I said all that to say this": work the RPM in a turboprop just as in a piston and you'll be doing it right. High RPM for takeoff, a little lower for climb, lower yet for cruise. High RPM is required to get max HP, lower RPM values are used primarily for human comfort (noise level). Since FS does not natively have sound following the prop (when, O WHEN??), this is basically a training exercise in the sim, but there are a few 3rd party PT6 aircraft that do model this well (through no trivial effort on the part of the programmers), the Fanda Dash 8 comes prominently to mind. RealAir products do this well in the piston world, and I can only hope they'll do a turboprop some day. There are doubtless others who have made the effort. Fly! of course, does this very well and is so far the best extant turboprop sim. We'll see if MS has fixed this in FSX, but I haven't see it in the blogs.The exact numbers for a the Beaver under discussion I don't have, but I can offer some suggestions. You should not have much trouble doing the same. Takeoff, of course, is easy -- just keep it under the redlines (about which see below). The first thing I learned in transitioning to turboprops was, you don't just firewall the power levers and forget it. You always reach an engine redline (torque, ITT, or N1) before reaching the end of lever travel. No turboprop has correctly modeled this in FS, except the Fanda Dash 8. I wish they would -- every other TP, you have to firewall the thing to get redline torque. Still, if you're going to ever be flying a real one, you should at least think about it every takeoff (on your way to the stop)!Climb power is whatever prop RPM is called for, with torque, ITT, & N1 (called Ng in some, including our Beaver under discussion here) all under the redlines. ITT will steadily become more important as you climb (well, it should, but none of the PT6 turboprops I've seen in FS model this behavior well). Cruise power comes from the charts, though there doesn't seem to be one with this release. Looking at the checklist, they list prop as 1600-1900 RPM at every point, so I'll have to fly it to see how the engine is set up. However I can propose this, based on my experience with other PT6s: Takeoff 1900 RPM, Climb 1800 RPM, Cruise, 1600-1700 RPM. In the King Airs, I always took the lower setting, because it made the cabin near-silent (well, amazingly quiet, anyway) for the pax, at a minor cost in speed.More important than specific numbers is this general principle: when reducing power (just as in a piston), reduce torque before reducing RPM or you can overtorque your PT6! In physics, at a constant horsepower, reducing RPM causes torque to rise, and that's exactly how it works in a turboprop, too. FS portrays this pretty well in default behavior.So, you can think of it this way: the power lever controls HP in flight while the prop lever controls how much of that power is available to you. Net result, pull torque back before pulling the prop back, and push the prop up before pushing any serious power up. If you've been descending and you're only pushing back up to cruise power, you do not need to push props up any. But if you've been descending on an approach and suddenly need to go around, props go up first! Otherwise, if you stop pushing up at redline torque, you won't get full power. And if your need for power is such that you do push on up to the stop, you'll have overtorqued your gearbox and it will have to be pulled off the airplane and sent to overhaul (the boss won't like that). And if they find metal (gear bits) in the oil, the entire engine will be sent off, to the tune of $150K or more, and you'll be on the street looking for a job. :-rollFor this reason, while riding in turboprop airliners, you'll hear the prop RPM rise while on final approach -- against that go-around possibility, "Props full forward" is in their checklist. In the King Air I didn't do that, mostly 'cause it scared the Boss's wife, but I was always ready to push props up first on a go around, and we trained that way. So, after all that, numbers: In the Beaver, I'd pull the torque back at least 250 - 300 ft/lbs for each 100 RPM the prop is going back. After you pull the prop back (assuming you pulled torque back from redline), you'll see the torque back up near the redline.You also need to have the prop full forward before using reverse, due to the complicated cam arrangement in the PT6 (known as the beta cam box) that makes forward power control plus beta and reverse prop pitch and power control possible, all through a single lever. So, ensure the prop lever's up before commanding reverse, if you want to be realistic. Back to redlines, what about the redline on ITT? Interstage Turbine Temperature can be thought of as the cost of getting the commanded power. The more power, the more heat. For takeoff on cool days, this is not a problem, there's enough mass in the airflow through the engine to carry away the heat, so you'll hit the torque redline before ITT begins to concern you. On warm days, depending on the model of PT6, you could hit the ITT redline before you get max torque. Later models used flat rated engines, which are thermodynamically capable of more power than their torque / RPM limits allow. They thus have reserves of power to meet the demands of warm and high altitude operations. I suppose (being kind) that this is why no FS PT6 even begins to approach temp limits during takeoff, they're all modeling flat-rated engines. I'd love to see someone do a payware job of the B or early C90, or A100, and include this in their work, along with correct sound modeling (jet whine following the power levers, prop sound following the props). You had to watch the temps takeoff on any day over 85. The Fanda is great but it ain't a King Air.Even flat-rated engines will reach a point during climb (or high takeoff temperatures) when they are producing max thermodymamic power. Altitudes (or temperatures) above this point will force the pilot to reduce power to keep temps below redline. FS' turboprop engine model does not handle this at all -- it actually runs cooler, not hotter, with altitude. That's not correct, even in jets. :-hmmmOne more thing about ITT: heat is your enemy, when it comes to turbine operating costs. The savvy PT6 pilot who wants to still have his / her job after (regularly scheduled) overhaul will run (where possible) at least 20C under redlines, more if possible. I ran the B200 40C under redline most times (Tucson, Phoenix, & Telluride being notable exceptions) and was rewarded with almost $30K savings at overhaul per engine. Bosses notice stuff like this! ;)There's one more redline the PT6 pilot has to consider: N1. In thick low-altitude air, lots of torque and is produced at a particular N1, but in the thin air at higher altitudes, less and less. The point is reached with certain models (and hours since HSI or overhaul) when, even though ITT is below redline, N1 is approaching it. The N1 redline I remember, 101.3%, is from the B200's PT6A-42, but others are probably similar. In the B200, I don't recall ever being limited by N1, unless it was at Tucson or Phoenix. It was not a problem at Telluride. However, in the A100, you had to keep an eye on it.Well, I imagine you'll say that's TMI! Sometimes, I just don't know when to quit! :-roll Oh well, back to lurking! :-wave

Hi,@ beachcomer!What a fantastic response about the Beaver. Many thanks for real world advice :( Andy.

No, no, no, I want more!But there is a lot there to digest. When I get a moment this evening, I'll take your compendium and go over each of the gauges so I can get it all straight.I am having trouble keeping what each lever is called straight.I'm used to: Throttle - Prop - MixtureIt seems in a TP it's: Power - Prop - ConditionI'm also having trouble keeping straight what lever to push when to control what.It seems you need to control Torque, ITT, N1 (Ng) and RPMPower lever controls TorqueProp controls RPMCondition controls N1for taxi use condition for low idlefor flight max condition high idle?for landing low idle across thresholdfor takeoff - max all to 40 degrees under redline 1900 rpmfor climb - pull torque a little then rpm 18-1900 rpmfor cruise - pull torque then rpm a little more 16-1900 rpmfor descent - pull torque then rpm some more 1600 rpmfor landing - pull torque some more max rpm pull condition over thresholdDoes that about generalize/summarize it (working the other details in as needed)?I'm still needing to understand what exact numbers to use for each phase of flight for Torque, ITT, N1 (Ng). I know they are interelated, but, as you noted above, you can vary them within any given RPM parameter.Thank you, thank you.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

Oops, I got it wrong in at least one place. I think you suggest that Condition should be high over the threshold in preparation for full reverse.I think I'm a little confused because in your knowledge of the subject, I think you are skipping a little terminology in between? for instance, in your first note you talk about keeping it in the beta range. Can I assume it is the prop lever that you move to the beta range?So how do you balance the fact that high N1 makes you float and needing it for full reverse?Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

Hey, Thomas,>I'm used to: Throttle - Prop - Mixture>It seems in a TP it's: Power - Prop - ConditionSo far, so good! :-D>It seems you need to control Torque, ITT, N1 (Ng) and RPM>>Power lever controls Torque>Prop controls RPM>Condition controls N1Almost. Condition lever controls N1 from idle % (often 50%, some models 55% or 60%) to 70%. Power lever controls N1 from wherever the condition lever left it to max%. Put it another way, the condition levers command N1 within a certain range of idle speeds (any of them too low to sustain flight), while the power levers control N1 over the whole range, idle to max. So, if the condition lever is at low idle, the power lever commands N1 from low idle to max. If the condition lever is at high idle, the power lever commands N1 from high idle to max. The only purpose of the condition lever is to idle the engine up to avoid high ITTs and to enhance reverse action by preventing the engine from idling too low after landing. Clearer?In my haste to get a complicated subject out in limited time, I have failed to set your feet on a good foundation. In a PT6, the pilot doesn't control anything directly, except maybe fuel cutoff. Everything else is through smoke and mirrors -- er, I mean, governors!The power and condition levers both set speed screws on the governor in the FCU (Fuel Control Unit). The governor watches N1 and adjusts fuel flow to attain the commanded setting. This is why the engine accelerates to (e.g.) 50% on start, and stays there until you move the power or condition lever. When you move the power lever, you're commanding N1. Torque is just along for the ride.Well, what's N1? It's the speed of the so-called gas generator, the core of the PT6. Compressor and turbine locked together, with a combustor in the middle. N1 is the speed of the compressor / turbine wheel, and since that's tied to how much fuel is being burned in the combustor, N1 pretty directly measures gas flow out of the gas generator and into the waiting power turbine(s) (PT) downstream. The latter is connected to the prop by the gearbox, but, other than the engine casing shell and the hot, fluid gas, has no physical connection to the gas generator.So, the pore dumb pilot, he just knows he shoves the power lever up and torque goes up. But what is happening under the hood is, he's commanding higher N1, more fuel is burned, more exhaust gas is generated, it pushes harder on the PT, the prop resists turning more, the torquemeter registers the strain.Lessee what else you wrote:>for taxi use condition for low idleKeereckt, unless it's hot or the A/C is bogging you down and the ITT is above the max idle temp of 680C (depending on model, B200 numbers given). However, in FS this little quibble of mine is a red herring, since it doesn't model engine bog. You DO get to see temps get really up there on start, though. Um, fergot to mention that the main ITT redline applies to idle and above. During start, you have a second "starting" redline at 1000C (Beaver). Due to very low mass airflow, temps can get very high, peaking as N1 passes 40-45%. Fortunately, due also to the very low mass airflow, the heat doesn't "soak" or "bite" into the metal parts much, and as the engine reaches idle, temps quickly fall below the "running" redline (780C in the Beaver, looks like), eventually reaching good numbers (if your not at Tucson!). This is why I say the worst thing you can normally do to a turbine is start it!>for flight max condition high idle?Actually, from a theoretical standpoint, it doesn't matter where the condition levers are in flight, as the power levers rule above whatever idle value the condition levers were commanding, and none of the PT6 airplanes I've flown can stay airborne at 70% and below. 85% is more like it, but that's not a hard number, because you don't really look at N1 much in flight, except when you might be approaching the limit, or to take the cruise flight engine numbers for your trend monitoring program. You fly the torquemeter, as far as setting power for what you're doing, so it's only long experience that can give me, through the occasional casual glance, any inkling of what might be a suitable N1 number for minimum sustained flight. And it might be way off. Someone still driving King Airs could (and should) correct me here if that's a total fantasy. ;-)>or landing low idle across thresholdNow, I still haven't flown the Beaver (gotta work -- in fact, I'm supposed to be working right now :-roll) so I don't know how important it is for that aircraft, but in 90 / 100 / 200 King Airs, you don't want the condition levers to be in high idle during landing, even short field, because it makes you really float. Especially for short fields, you want the mains to get on the ground where the brakes can work. But, after the mains are on the ground, or so close to being there that high idle can't prevent touchdown, and if you're landing on a short field, you do (IOW, may) push up the condition lever to high idle for improved reverse response. The reverse thrust won't be any higher, because when you pull the power levers all the way back, a cam runs N1 up again, to something in the vicinity of 90 or 92% (depending on PT6 model), but you will get that max thrust sooner, because N1 (and thus Np) won't fall on it's rear end quite so badly while you're getting the nosewheel down, the braking started, and the power levers over the gate and into reverse.>for takeoff - max all to 40 degrees under redline 1900 rpmExcept condition lever, which doesn't matter for takeoff. And let's be clear, 40C under ITT redline is for when you can - if you're on a tight lake, use it all -- better a slightly ratty engine flying away from the lake than a perfect one attached to some rocks at the shoreline! Just pull it back when you can. And this is all theoretical anyway -- you probably won't even see 700C on takeoff in any aircraft that's using FS' turboprop engine model.>for climb - pull torque a little then rpm 18-1900 rpmRight. Normally, let's say 1800 RPM. If you're keeping props 1900 for a War Emergency Power departure from a small, high, and obstructed mountain lake, obviously there's no need to pull torque -- rather the opposite! Only pull torque if you're about to pull prop -- then pull torque first.>for cruise - pull torque then rpm a little more 16-1900 rpmLooks like 1600-1900 RPM Np is allowed for all operations, but that doesn't mean it's comfortable. Thus the whole concept of reducing Np for comfort. So, for cruise, let's say 16-1700 RPM. 1700 for better speed, 1600 if we're coastin' with a tailwind. FS won't change the sound level for you, but you'll be setting a good precedent for ever getting into a real one.>for descent - pull torque then rpm some more 1600 rpmDescent is cruise with a lower torque. You reduce power as necessary to keep speed under desired values. No need to reduce RPM further -- if you've droned along for the last hour at 1700 RPM, it won't increase your pax's comfort much to give them 1600 for the last 10 minutes of flight. Work on a comfortable landing, instead ;-)>for landing - pull torque some more max rpm pull condition over thresholdAssuming you left it in low idle for takeoff, and you're not going to be needing max reverse, you can leave the condition lever alone on landing. All the rest is good.>I'm still needing to understand what exact numbers to use for each phase of flight for Torque, ITT, N1 (Ng). I know they are interelated,For takeoff, use all you can, less whatever ITT margin you can afford. You should look at both Torque & ITT to see you're not exceeding either. The hotter / higher you are, the more likely you'll be limited by ITT in the real world (though I've not seen it happen in FS), and the greater the importance of crosschecking the N1 gauge, as well. Looks like 101.3% is it for the Beaver, too. I also notice a 20C yellow arc just below redline ITT, you're probably limited to five minutes in the yellow for takeoff or emergencies. So take your 20C margin from the top of the green arc and you can run the engine all the livelong day, other parameters being within limits.In cruise, you would normally have a chart to refer to, but you're not using 75% or 65%, etc. the way you do in piston engines. I don't have my King Air operator's manual right now (just moved) but I think you're approved for max continuous operation in the green arcs for Torque and ITT, so just check the N1 and let 'er eat. Takeoff might force you to take less ITT margin than you'd like, but once away from obstructions, you can reclaim it and keep it through all subsequent operations. Assuming you're below ITT margin and can still get torque to the redline, I'd still cruise a couple hundred ft/lbs below the top of the green, to give margin for turbulence. When you hit a bump in the real airplane, you'll see the torquemeter jump as the strain on the prop changes due to the unstable airflow. I see the Beaver has a yellow arc in torque, too (again, this is probably a five minute takeoff / emergency limit), so cruising at the top of the green would give you an excellent margin to redline.Descent, you can't shock cool a turbine, and you're going to be pulling away from redlines, to there's nothing to sweat on ITT or N1, and torque will be "as required" to keep IAS where you want it. "Where you want it" will vary, depending on turbulence. Normally, I'd stay under Vmo, if turbulent under Vno (top of the green), and if strongly turbulent, I'd be as near Va as turbulence would allow.I could give you the King Air numbers, but they won't help you with the Beaver: Takeoff and first segment climb, 800C (760C preferred) and 2200 ft/lbs, if hot check N1 below 101.3%, 2000 Np. Second segment and cruise climb, 760C, 2200 ft/lbs, <101.3%, 1900 Np. Cruise, 760C, torques wherever (torque decreases with altitude, in the B200 you can only get 2200 ft/lbs to 13,000' in ISA, and cruise altitude is usually far above that), 101.3% (actually 96% is about where it fell in the 200), 1700 Np. Top of descent, no power change, lower the nose to get 2000 FPM down. IAS will be well below redline at top of descent. As descent continues into thicker air, it will become necessary to start reducing power to keep airspeed below VNE (or lower as described above, depending on turbulence). Level in the landing circuit, 1000 ft/lbs until <200 KIAS (if memory serves), first notch of flaps then, decay to 160, get the gear, full flaps on final and 120 knots, and it seems like I'm remembering 1000 - 1200 ft/lbs are pretty good numbers for all of that. But really, these numbers for descent and landing are widely variable between aircraft, the Beaver with those floats hanging out is going to be very different.This is also going to vary, depending on the vagarities of the FS turboprop engine model (which I despise) and the skill and diligence of the programmers and the RW experience and persistence of the beta testers. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to make FS model the in-flight N1 numbers accurately to real life. I only mention it because in flying the real thing, it will be a consideration.Now, this just in from your 2nd post:>Can I assume it is the prop lever that you move to the beta range?No, you can not! }( The power lever alone controls the prop at blade angles below the low pitch stop. The prop lever just sets a speed screw on the prop governor, which regulates oil pressure to the oil dome to maintain the commanded or governed speed. With the prop lever at full forward, 1900 RPM (Beaver) is being commanded. If the prop is running slower than this, oil is pumped into the dome to force the blades toward fine pitch, in an effort to get the RPM back up. But in PT6 engines there is a mechanism, called the low pitch stop, to keep the blades from decreasing below a certain minimum value in flight. A very complicated device called the beta cam box keeps track of the prop blade angle and limits oil pressure to the dome (overriding the governor) to keep blade angle at this minimum value. Thus, the only thing the (edit) PROP lever can do when the prop is "off governor" is feather the prop.Check the illustration in my first post. The yellow lines are pointing to positions on the power lever's travel. The white outline box across both power lever tracks is barely discernable (or barely not) to have a legend on it's left side, "IDLE". Below that, four letters are strung down the left power lever track, L I F T. Below that are the red & white barber poles and "CAUTION". Between the white outline box marked Idle and the barber poles is beta range. When the pilot lifts the power levers and moves back into beta range, the beta cam box's low pitch stop is reset to a finer pitch value, and the prop can decrease it's blade angle to the new limit. You can move the levers further back until you're at an effective zero blade angle, and making zero thrust. At this point you are about to exit beta range and enter reverse. In the King Air, your power lever should be at the top of the barber poles now. As you move further back, the prop blades move into negative numbers, and the beta cam box starts scheduling increased N1 to add real authority to the reverse action. This continues to the end of travel, at which your engine should be somewhere near 90% and your prop blades will be at the maximum minus angle perscribed, probably something in the -15 degrees range. Np will not exceed a certain perscribed value, either, but I don't have the Beaver number. In the 200 it was 1900 RPM. Generally it should be below the redline Np, and I'd guess it should be 100-200 RPM below. Now, I'm in trouble for slacking! Time to beat feet and get the billing going.

Wow, this is going to take some practice to get used to.Thank you, thank you. I am starting to understand the operation here. Do you mind if I publish this on my website? I'm thinkin' I'll fix up my overview of what you said, including the numbers you mentioned (saying they are for the king air), and then include the full text. And your authorship, of course.Thanks again, this is awesome,Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

Sure, as long as access is free. Be sure to get the latest version of that last one - several cases of swapped terminology fixed. Also pls send me the website URL.

It's in the sig :)Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

D'oh! :-roll

I'll run it by you before I post it.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

"Since FS does not natively have sound following the prop (when, O WHEN??),..." Before the "Feel There" payware Cessna Caravan C-208 was released, Leon "pancreas" Medado offered a free sound package for the default C-208 Caravan. I have it in my default C-208. If you have the payware C-208 Caravan then you have this same sound package from Medado because he no longer offers it as freeware because it is part of that airplane from what I understand. Below is an excerpt from the Sound cfg that used to be freeware. /// FS2004 TURBOPROP SOUND ENHANCEMENT PACKAGE, C208 and C208B/// SOUND.CFG modified from default by Leon "pancreas" Medado/// Please read the Disclaimer in the ReadMe file.I have aliased the turbo Beaver sound to my C-208. If you have the "Feel There" payware C-208 you can alias the turbo Beaver sound to it.What I like about it is the sounds follow the prop. At idle with the prop in beta you can hear and see a change as the power lever is advanced for taxi. There is about a 200-300 prop rpm drop as the prop comes out of beta. In spot view you can see the nosewheel squat as the prop starts to pull.I also can't understand why the FS aircraft designers, that are using PT-6s can't program the props to go into feather at shutdown. All PT-6s do this because of the loss of oil pressure to the props at shutdown.