Greetings everyone!

I have enjoyed X-plane 11 for years.  Now it's MSFS 2020.  Really am so happy with everything.  Honestly, the built in ATC is pretty amazing as well (sounds amazing) and I would be happy with it, if only it were a bit more accurate in terms of when to instruct for descent.  Also, navigating around terrain is an issue for the stock ATC along with other little bugs that can be annoying.

I actually thought about just going with Pilots Edge this time around.  But, still need to build my confidence.  So, I saw that Pilot2ATC is still current and works with MSFS 2020. So here I am.

For the most part I am pretty impressed, tho there are some things that are not sitting well with me.  The first, is that it's annoying (sorry Dave) that this "ships" with a two year old NAV database.  For people (like me) who are excited for "something better" that what is already included with the sim, getting this is a big deal.  But, then quickly you realize that now.. lol, I need to spend more for much of the plans and fixes to actually match up with the sim / real world.  So, a bit of feedback from a typical consumers view.. is that you should always include the CURRENT database when someone pays for the program.  I realize Navigraph is a separate company, and I understand how that works, and if people want to continue with updates then they can sign up for that membership etc.  But, out of the gate... it should be current. Period.  I mean how long is this old NAV database going to last with the download?  3yrs?  5yrs?  10?  At some point this needs to be addressed and you might as well have it ship with the current database. 

Anyway, rant over.

Now, the issues...

First, TOD is simply not being calculated properly.  I use simbrief and have a plan all setup.  Simple one from KFLL to Orlando.  The first issue I see, is the outdated database.  lol, but once I figure out another route and have it set I think everything is going to work.  But, it dose not.   I see the green arrow for the TOD.  I have my GS and rate all preset and the plane is close to that in the sim.  But, it seems every time ATC tells me to descend.. it's far too late.  Then, on top of that (for the three flights I have done so far with it) it will tell me to climb, after it has told me to descend!  "Eclipse five, two tango descend to 5000 feet for PBI transition" then 3 seconds later.. "Eclipse five, two tango climb to FL190".   Then, a few seconds later tell me to descend again?

I have flown Denver to Aspen,  Burlington VT to Montreal, and Ft, Lauderdale to Orlando.. all small flights and all have issues like this.  The ATC direction is very rushed, last min and all grabbled together.   

The truth is, the stock ATC (so far) is better!  I hate saying that.. but, while it too has issues with telling me when to descend.. I was hoping a third party app like this would surly telecare of that.  But, I see this is not the case.  Also, the voice quality with p2ATC is very poor and robotic.  The new MSFS 2020 the voices sound amazingly real!  I know, you can buy more voices from other third party apps.. but, is there a way to use the same voices that MSFS is using?  because, to me thats the new standard!  I think it is something called "Azure" and is done with the internet?  Because with no internet, they sound like word not allowed robots, like in the stock setup of P2ATC.  Basically, if the stock ATC allowed for slightly better planning in the sim (TOD, and accurate descend) it would be perfect.  So, P2ATC would need to fill in that gap and this is what I am understandably looking for.  It's just frustrating to spend an entire day getting this all setup.. only to have, basically the same issues with robot voices and what I see as very little advantage over what is already built into MSFS 2020.  Granted this is just my opinion and I know many of you may disagree.

So, I don't know if this is because of the outdated database, or.. what.  I have ensured that the flight plan matches what is in the FMS in the plane.. (which is another thing that is not smooth with Pilot2ATC and MSFS 2020).  While you can make the plan in P2A, and then export, and import to MSFS it still has issues.  For example if I want to then choose to do a cold start from parking space vs. hot and ready on runway.. it will remove the plan (this is a MSFS issue I am sure tho).  The work around I found, is you need to only use the pulldown list on the flight plan screen in MSFS and manually select the starting spot, without using the map.  It works okay then.

I am tempted to buy the $70/yr membership with Navigraph, just to see if this is an outdated database issue?  But, wanted to stop in here first and see 🙂

Thanks everyone,

T

 

Maybe you should take a crack at coding an ATC program. There's a reason why there are very few options. It's not easy to do. BTW, you're aware that the database that ships with MSFS 2020 is neither complete or up to date, right?

Edited September 20, 20205 yr by mwilk

Actually the database in MSFS 2020 is pretty close to up to date.  Mine is showing current as of this month.  So, at worst I would say a month behind.  Microsoft has said this will be updated on-going each month.  So, that is exciting.

Look, I get you are a little defensive in your reply.  This is a small niche community and I get that.  But, maybe you can be more helpful and offer some ideas as to why the some of the basic functions of this program are not working well and just look past the other subjective comments I made 🙂

Thanks!

Pilot2ATC ships with the 1801 database because Navigraph, who used to provide data about 6 months old, was forced to stop providing more up to date data to ship with products by the data owner, Jeppesen.  I would be glad to ship newer data if it was permitted.

The new Azure voices are pretty nice, and with a total rewrite of P2A, they might be usable.  For now, we are stuck with the Windows Desktop voices.  There are some things you can do on your PC to make them sound more like radio voices.  There is a pinned thread in this forum that gives details.

As for TOD, the trick is to set the Descent rate correctly, usually 1500-1800 FPM for an airliner.  Then stay on speed.  If, for example, your groundspeed is quite a bit lower than your planned groundspeed, then you will be given the descent later than you expected in your plan.  Then, once you start your descent, if you let your groundspeed increase, you won't make it down in time.

I'm not sure what you are talking about "it will remove the plan" when you change the starting location.  P2A has nothing to do with that, so it is an MSFS issue.

 

 

Thanks Dave for the reply!  Greatly appreciated 🙂

I did not know about that issue with Navigraph and this now makes sense (from their point of view).  They want that extra sale.  That's too bad, but it makes sense now.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah, the new Azure voices are really surprising!  I tried looking for that link you mentioned.. is it the one that talks about buying the voices from the other third parties? Or is there something else that can be done?  Thanks for that.

I will experiment now with a new flight with the TOD.  For me, this is where it all falls apart lol.  I am flying the smaller GA jets.  Citation CJ4.  It's a fast plane.  I follow the rules below 10K to less than 250kts IAS.. but, above that I tend to step on it unless restricted by ATC (same in real world).  So, I often pickup the GS quick.  It's hard to estimate this before my flight.  Even Simbrief does not give me a calculation.  I see the descent profile of the airframe is about -2k/fpm so I have been using this in the plane and in the Pilot2ATC.  Maybe I need to increase the GS value in Pilot2ATC to retard the TOD a bit more.  I will play and see.

Yes, correct the issue with the import of the *.pln files is a MSFS issue.. not Pilot2ATC.  It's just a little glitch where when you want to start from cold and dark, you need to select a gate / ramp.  BUT, you can't do it from the map or it will remove the flight plan.  You have to use the drop down and manually find it.

So, I guess the real solution is to just buy Navi graph.  This way the MSFS, Pilot2ATC are always in sync with one another.

It was actually the data owner(Jeppesen) that Navigraph gets the data from that got greedy, as far as I know.  It is definitely worth getting the Navigraph subscription.  My understanding is that it will be Navigraph supplying the data updates for MSFS, as part of their subscription, like they do for X-Plane.  Not 100% sure, but I have seen that mentioned a couple of places.

I would recommend using 1800 FPM or even 1600 FPM.  The program uses your actual GS while enroute to re-evaluate TOD, trying to get it as close as possible.  But if you greatly exceed that speed when descending, then having a lower descent rate will put the TOD out far enough to get a good descent.

Here's the thread on voice modification.  Go the the very bottom for a good video.  Not trivial, but once set up, it apparently works well.

 

Wow!  Thanks Dave!  I will have a look!  Good tip about the lower the rate.  Going to do a little flight now from KSLC to KJAC.. so this will be a good test.

I did notice, when I made the flight with Pilot2ATC and then exported it out.. I loaded in MSFS, and on the setup screen of the sim I see that the departing runway / arrival etc.. are all not correct.  Is that normal?  For example, in the P2ATC plan I have departing runway 14, using the SLC4 departure.  But, the sim and the FMS of the plane are set to Runway 34R with a totally different departure.  The same goes with the approach etc.

If I try and change it on the flight plan screen in the sim.. it will remove the rest of the waypoints I set etc.   (this is what I mean by it seems off a bit?).   Maybe I am doing it wrong?  Or, maybe I need to not export any plan at all.. and just start the sim with a VFR GPS config, and then manually enter everything in the FMS on the ground etc?   Was hoping to avoid that if possible, but maybe no other way?

The way to handle this is to get the SIM going to see what departure runway is in use.  Then you should be able to create a plan in P2A that uses that runway and SID if desired.  The plan should then import correctly, using the Load button at the bottom of MSFS's Flight planning screen. 

I haven't had enough time with MSFS myself to be an expert yet, so perhaps others might have figured this one out.  

Thanks Dave.  Just landed safely in KJAC.  Flight went much better this time.  Going to now try a more challenging one into KASE.  Your tips helped a lot.   

 

One quick thing.. every time I take off..  I get a constant, repeating ATC about "traffic".  Its like a non stop loop for about 30seconds.  Then finally ends and tells me to contact center etc.  How can I disable this?  This has happened now on every flight.

Glad your flight went better.

You can turn alerts off completely on the AI Traffic tab of Config by unchecking the option for traffic alerts.

I would first try tightening up the criteria for alerts to something like within 1000 ft altitude and 5NM distance.  What's happening is that as soon as you get airborne, all the traffic within your criteria are instantly in range and you start getting all those alerts.  Reducing the range will make the traffic alerting more realistic.

Dave

Thanks Dave.  yeah, just did another flight into KASE.  A very difficult approach for any pilot.  The ATC worked well and did an accurate TOD this time.  So, for sure the issue was playing with the GS speed / rate of descent in the settings.

Now all I need is for everything to be on the same page.  So, charts, sim, and ATC.  I guess this is where Navigraph really comes in.

May I ask.. I am not a real world pilot..   On an IFR flight, is it standard practice that ATC will basically give you vertical directions / instructions up until the IAF, then from that point forward the pilot would just descend based on the approach plate for that give flight?

I noticed in a few occasions, both with P2A and even the stock ATC.. I would often over fly the runways, waiting for ATC to give a final instruction to descend to the point where I would intercept the GS.  So, it got me thinking.. "hummm, maybe I am just suppose to do that on my own at this point?"   How does that typically work?

 

When you are cleared to descend via a STAR, you are cleared to descend according to any restrictions in the STAR.  When cleared for an approach, you are cleared to descend according to the altitude restrictions in the approach.

Once you contact tower on the approach, they will give you landing clearance or tell you to call when established on final, at which time they would give you landing clearance, so you would be cleared all the way down to touchdown.   

So it is quite possible, you will get no altitude assignments on the way down if flying all published procedures.

Dave

 

Thank you Dave!  This was very helpful and explains a big gap I had in my understanding.  I appreciate that so much.

I gotta say..  I am now very impressed with this.  I can see now why this is much better vs. the stock ATC.  For the casual flyer who wants a taste of ATC, the stock setup I think is more than great.  But, then I think this platform is such a great step (especially for those who want to maybe get into Pilots Edge or something like that).  This is really incredible.  Now, I need to practice my readbacks LOL.  I need a pen and paper handy so I can jot down everything.  My goal is to have a totally voice based experience without having to touch the interface (except maybe to see the taxi path).  That would be incredible.   Then, in time if I can find a way to get better voices (I saw your link) it would be perfect.  I bought the chatter.. and that makes this a lot better too.   

Also, your support is really second to none.. and that is rare these days.