To the forum Mod's..........

[Paul Golding 92]

Concerning the revised rules relating to posting pic's of commercial products.Surely a product that is on general release has no active beta testers and posts by former beta testers should be treated in the same way as any other user.Pre-release publicity pic's by developers and their beta testers is straight-forward.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[RoughLandings 1]

Be careful, they don't take criticism to well ;).

[AWACS 12]

>Concerning the revised rules relating to posting pic's of>commercial products.>>Surely a product that is on general release has no active beta>testers and posts by former beta testers should be treated in>the same way as any other user.>>Pre-release publicity pic's by developers and their beta>testers is straight-forward.>>http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpgI agree Paul. Though I've never been a beta tester for any product, it would be ashame if I was unable to post screenshots here of that product after it's been released, especially if it's a great a photogenic aircraft like the 727.Jeff

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I'm going to move this to Hangar Chat, since it's the most appropriate place for discussion. I believe (moderator hat off) that a product in general release should allow for screenshot postings from anyone provided they are not paid or would profit in any way by the positive press most shots generate. In my book that would include beta testers once the beta is closed. A number beta tested MSFS and have posted screenshots. However, I don't make the rules, I am just trying to apply common sense as best I can. -JohnEdit: I mean to say, I feel beta testers should be allowed to post screenshots if they aren't gaining financially directly or indirectly from such posts and the beta is over. I find it inappropriate, however, when a "significant other" sneaks in a few shots on behalf of someone in the business of selling product.

[Guest Ken_Salter]

What does this mean?

[Guest Staggerwing]

>What does this mean?I'd like to hear that answer also..

[Paul Golding 92]

So John, are you saying beta testers of a released product are free to post and that Sally (my wife and a FS user) cannot, or the opposite?I'm not the one locking posts made by former beta testers and I discussed this with Tom over a year ago to clarify that it was in fact OK for these posts to be made once a product is released.Just so we're clear, this is the post that prompted my initial comment.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=222833&page=http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

I see that there is some confusion that needs to be straightened out. I will post an explanation of our rules later tonight when I get home. We've got some new forum mods and we haven't made clear our beta rules to them. More later.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"So John, are you saying beta testers of a released product are free to post and that Sally (my wife and a FS user) cannot, or the opposite?"I am not casting guilt on any specific party. I've seen in the past (and in a couple of instances have caught in the act) screenshots and posts from people representing vendors--their relationship sometimes family, close friends or the vendors themselves. I think that type of posting is unethical and attempts to skirt rules meant to protect a site's bandwidth from becoming free product publicity.I haven't locked any screenshot post--I certainly had the option to lock or delete your wife's post. I didn't. I show a lot of leeway when it comes to vendor posts in general, sometimes taking flak for it as being "vendor friendly." I'm not a proxy of any vendor--I just think there's benefit to participation by vendors as long as they're not blatantly plugging their products.Also, in my reply I expressed my opinion, and that is I feel beta testers of a released product should be allowed to post assuming they are outside of the beta. I'll expand that further--I feel any tester released from an NDA should be allowed to share screenshots of a product even ahead of its release. But what I feel and what the rules are--that's another story. Tom and the rest of the staff may see red flags and perhaps its because the gray area between "tester" and "paid consultant" is becoming grayer by the day. Many testers receive free product in exchange for their aid. I think that's a great compensation, but it can also make some overzealous in plugging a product. It may simply be a "where do you draw the line" scenario.-John Edit: Tom was adding his post as I was adding mine. Hopefully that will clarify the question and provide an acceptable answer for all.

[Paul Golding 92]

I look forward to seeing this area clarified in due course and in the meantime, have advised the former beta testers of the 727 that they should either not disclose the fact they tested the product, or at least make it clear they are no longer subject to a NDA.For the record, they are all non-paid voluneers who at best, have received the product only by virtue of the fact they needed to test it.With regard to Sally's posts. We both know they were close to taking the #### out of the rules and I obviously appreciate the fact they were allowed to remain. You will possibly also have noticed that this treatment by Avsim was repaid by the fact that Sally has posted something like 2 screenshot posts in the last year i.e they weren't pushing it.Lastly, I do realize that this recent deletion of a 727 post was the result of complaints made by forum users (quite rightly) regarding another vendors beta shots.Anyway, Avsim's clear statement will be appreciated.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Guest Mark McG]

On a related note, Could you also clarify whether or not beta testers or developers are allowed to post pictures of a freeware repaint ( that they are uploading to Avsim ) of an already released payware product. In this instance the painter is wanting to highlight their freeware release and painting skills, but is being penalised by the current rules.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

I don't know what "revised" rules we are speaking of here. I suspect that your reference to them is generated by the actions of today - meaning that there are no "new" rules, just a misinterpretation of the existing ones by a new forum mod. Okay, here is as succinct a summation of the rules as I can muster... And this relates TOTALLY to commercial posts. :)Commercial vendors are not allowed to post images in our forums in regards to either about-to-be-released products or previously released products. In short, commercial vendors are not allowed "free advertising" on AVSIM. If you have a forum on AVSIM, you can post images, hype, whatever you like. If you don't and haven't previously arranged for a forum on AVSIM then don't take advantage of our readership for commercial gain.Beta testers are allowed to post images of beta products ONLY after the publisher has informed us that they have been released from the beta NDA. If we do not receive notice from the publisher that the beta testers have been released from the NDA, then we'll assume they are "busting" the NDA and remove the images. (This appears to be the issue in today's removal of files... our SS Forum Mods should now be on the "same page" regarding this).Users of products released, in production, or purchased are free to post any image they care to, as long as it meets our size and location restrictions.Family members of producers / publishers are the same as the publishers / producers. The restrictions to commercial posts apply.I hope that clarifies things.

[Paul Golding 92]

Thanks for the clarification Tom..............will you tell her or shall I? ;-)http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

:-lol If I tell her, I am sure I will suffer from lack of drinks in the near future. You tell her; after all she is your VP of Marketing (she bought the rounds, so she has to have the mega budget of the marketing type!!!). :-lol

[G7USL 117]

I would just like to say that I did appreciate Sally's pictures of the update.As I already have the package, it was a 'freeware' file that was given free to existing customers.People like Bob and Dreamfleet are the gold band of this hobby producing first class sims.I do understand you though Tom, and how it could snowball out of hand.Dave T. .........On the Devon Riviera and active 'FlightSim User's Group' member at http://www.flightsimgrpuk.free-online.co.uk/