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Guest Ron Freimuth

A321 and rudder control

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Hi,I searched the AVSIM forums but didn't found a specific topic. So I ask here explicitely: Is there anyone who flies the A321 in FSX. If so, how is your control over the rudder?The reason why I ask this is that on my computer the rudder doesn't move once I am off the runway and in the air. When on ground I see the rudder moving (from the outside view) in sync whith the movement of my pedals. Then I take off and suddenly the rudder is blocked. It doesn't move any longer. No matter how much I move my pedals, it doesn't move. When I perfrom a steep turn the turn coordinator in the PFD indicates an uncoordinated turn. Even when I switch on the autopilot, enable heading mode and initiate a turn by dialing another heading, the rudder is fixed and the turn is not coordinated.I tried everything: autorudder on/off, autopilot/flight director on/off, yaw damper on/off (not sure if this has any effect in the A321).So I wonder if this is a real bug or if I overlooked something.rgdslilo

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Hi Lilo,I asked the same question months ago. No one had an answer so I sent the problem to tell_fs@microsoft.com. All I received was an automated confirmation reply. I still have no idea if the rudder actually works or maybe it's just the graphic that does not move. Not sure if this link will work but give it a try.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchOr try topic #358242, 14 Oct 06 at 5pm posted by SimDog.Regards,SD

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Hi SimDog,thanks for your quick reply. At least I know now that I am not alone. It raises the chance that this is a real bug. From the topic you pointed to I read that there are probably more bugs. Looks like this A321 was a quick hack.:-mad Too bad there is no workaround available for the rudder issue.rgdslilo

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>... FSX. If so, how is your control over the rudder?>>The reason why I ask this is that on my computer the rudder>doesn't move once I am off the runway and in the air. When on>ground I see the rudder moving (from the outside view) in sync>whith the movement of my pedals. Then I take off and suddenly>the rudder is blocked. It doesn't move any longer. No matter>how much I move my pedals, it doesn't move. When I perfrom a>steep turn the turn coordinator in the PFD indicates an>uncoordinated turn. Even when I switch on the autopilot,>enable heading mode and initiate a turn by dialing another>heading, the rudder is fixed and the turn is not coordinated. I think the real A321 may turn the Yaw Damper on automatically in the air. I don't remember any Yaw Damper switch on any of the FSX A321 panels. Not, did Ctl D appear to toggle the FS YD. The FS YD doesn't work as a YD should. I guess that's why you get uncoordinated turns. A real YD will coordinate turns and also minimize Yaw excursions. It is not used for TO and landing.>So I wonder if this is a real bug or if I overlooked>something.>lilo Not so much a bug as a non-function YD in all versions of MSFS. Note there is an update for the A321 and B737 FSX gauge files in the AVSIM library. Which fixes some of the incorrect gauge displays. Ron

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>Hi,>>I searched the AVSIM forums but didn't found a specific topic.>So I ask here explicitely: Is there anyone who flies the A321>in FSX. If so, how is your control over the rudder?>>The reason why I ask this is that on my computer the rudder>doesn't move once I am off the runway and in the air. When on>ground I see the rudder moving (from the outside view) in sync>whith the movement of my pedals. Then I take off and suddenly>the rudder is blocked. It doesn't move any longer. No matter>how much I move my pedals, it doesn't move. When I perfrom a>steep turn the turn coordinator in the PFD indicates an>uncoordinated turn. Even when I switch on the autopilot,>enable heading mode and initiate a turn by dialing another>heading, the rudder is fixed and the turn is not coordinated.>>I tried everything: autorudder on/off, autopilot/flight>director on/off, yaw damper on/off (not sure if this has any>effect in the A321).>>So I wonder if this is a real bug or if I overlooked>something.>>rgds>liloHi Lilo,This is another case where the automatic controls of the A321 take over once you start flying - the same thing happens with the trim controls.To switch them off, call up the overhead panel (shift-4). The automatics are controlled by the three toggle switches under Flight Control. It's the middle one (SEC 1) which releases control of the rudder (and probably other things as well).Of course, you switch this off at your own risk - you will then be in total control of the plane.Stewart

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stupep2,thank you for that! I already had the feeling that I overlooked something. Let me try this SEC1 switch...rgdslilo

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Hi,here is an update. I switched the controller off by pressing the SEC1 switch. Uh, the aircraft got very responsive! Indeed, the rudder moves with this setting. But it becomes hard if not impossible to control the aircraft at all. Funny thing: With this setup you can bring the A321 into very strange flight situations.I switched the controller on again and enabled the autopilot (ALT, HDG) and the autothrottle. After a minute I started a right turn by dialing a different heading. This way I forced the aircraft to make a 360 degree turn. On completion I looked at the flight analysis only to see that the flight path showed an almost perfect circle.Well, this would not be possible if the aircraft would slip. Which leaves us with the question why the slip indicator fools me by displaying a slip rather than a coordinated turn. And the rudder doesn't move a single inch. How did they programmed the controller? Does the simulator just move around the A321 in the FS world like in the old days of simple air combat games?rgdslilo

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>>Well, this would not be possible if the aircraft would slip.>Which leaves us with the question why the slip indicator fools>me by displaying a slip rather than a coordinated turn. And>the rudder doesn't move a single inch. How did they programmed>the controller? Does the simulator just move around the A321>in the FS world like in the old days of simple air combat>games?>>rgds>liloRead Ron Freimuth's post earlier in this thread about the yaw damper. That, I believe, is what is not being accurately portrayed.As I said, I do believe that the A321 has auto-coordination, and you are not slipping, even though a slip indicator says you are. Have you tried disabling auto-coordination and then flying straight and level and then kicking the rudder in one direction? I admit, I have not done it with that aircraft yet but now you have me instrested...RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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>here is an update. I switched the controller off by pressing>the aircraft to make a 360 degree turn. On completion I looked>at the flight analysis only to see that the flight path showed>an almost perfect circle.>>Well, this would not be possible if the aircraft would slip. In a stable turn, one gets a circle whether the AC is slipping or not. However, if there is some Yaw (slip), the rate of turn is changed from what it would be at the same bank and speed. Further, the Yaw adds undesirable drag.>Which leaves us with the question why the slip indicator fools>me by displaying a slip rather than a coordinated turn. I assume you mean the 'ball'. Which amounts to an 'Inclinometer'. In a coordinated turn the G vector is 'into the seat', and one feels no side force on his body. However, one can turn an AC by using only the rudder. If the wings are kept level, then the ball moves to one side and the pilot feels the force. Similar to turning in an automobile on an an unbanked highway. >the rudder doesn't move a single inch. How did they programmed>the controller? Does the simulator just move around the A321>in the FS world like in the old days of simple air combat>games?>rgds>lilo An FS AC moves pretty much according the the 'equations of flight' programmed in the simulator. The problem here is there is no effective Yaw Damper in MSFS, thus one is flying a partially disabled version of the real aircraft. RAF

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:-hmmm Slip or not, in a stable turn the flight path outlines a circle. That's an argument. One should think before posting nonsense.I analysed the gauge file "PFD.xml" in the A321 panel folder. The slip indicator is moved and rotated by accessing the same sim variable as used in the gauge of the 737-800 or any other aircraft. Consequently the slip indicator shows the slip state of the aircraft independently from the aircraft type. If it indicates a slip the A321 does slip as a C172 would slip if the ball is not centered!Let me check how the other heavies (B737, B747) behave...rgdslilo

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>:-hmmm Slip or not, in a stable turn the flight path outlines>a circle. That's an argument. One should think before posting>nonsense.Huh?In a constant turn with constant speed etc, regardless of slip, the aircraft must fly in a circle. If you think otherwise I'd suggest you make an argument before suggesting someone is posting nonsense.The amount of slip simply dictates the size of the circle flown.

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G'day PaulA constant turn would be the result of a co-ordinated turn. Thus there can be a rate turn. ie a timed perfect circle. With the introduction of slip the aircraft is turning with an ever increasing radius thus not flying in a pure circle.You can't have a constant turn with slipIn order to fly a circle you can't have slip !Well that's how I see it, but I'm not a pilot. I'm open to correction.Cheers,Roger

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OK, so now I'm wondering what's right ;-)An example: Shortly after the 727 was released some kind soul carried out a few well thought out tests because he felt the 727 turning circle was too big. The test results were enough to prove there was an error in the .air file that left the 727 requiring rudder input during a turn.........and you don't touch the rudder on almost any (if any) airliner during normal flight.Anyway, after checking and re-checking, it turned out that one the changes that some silly sod had made to Ron Freimuth's air file had a bad effect (OK, I hold my hand up to this :-roll)Now you're suggesting that with this error, the aircraft would have flown in ever increasing circles so one would assume that flying a holding pattern would have required directional input between turns; this I never found was required.In fact, thinking about it some more, what if the flight model had an error that required negative rudder in a turn? If no rudder input was used I'd expect a smaller cicle whereas you'd be expecting an ever decreasing circle? That doesn't seem right.Back to the slip. The effect of the slip on the aircraft is that its nose is pointing the wrong way; how much depends on the speed and bank angle. I just can't see how, given a constant speed and bank angle, the nose can do anything other than point slightly out of the turn and stay at that angle. For the turning circle to be ever increasing, the nose would have to be pointing further and further out of the turn wouldn't it?Sorry, what a load of waffle. Be nice if somebody that actually knew what they were talking about could chime in here :-) Greatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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Paul Golding,the statement of mine about the nonsense was directed against myself. Wasn't that clear? Sorry!Regarding other aircrafts in FSX: I started a test flight in the Beechcraft King Air 350. I departed, leveled off and turned on the autopilot (HDG + ALT). Then I dialed a different heading. The aircraft went into a turn. The position of the turn coordinator ball changed while in the intial phase then the ball stayed centered while in a stable turn. This is what I would expect from an aircraft controlled by the autopilot.I did the same in the Boeing 737-800. There was a minimal slip, hardly to be seen, far better than in the A321. I repeated this procedure with yaw damper on and off - both times the same result.Looks like the slip is specific to the A321, isn't it?rgdslilo

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>Paul Golding,>>the statement of mine about the nonsense was directed against>myself. Wasn't that clear? Sorry!>It wasn't clear to me, either! heheh. I thought you had gotten up on the wrong side of the bed or something.>>Looks like the slip is specific to the A321, isn't it?>Can you tell if the A321 is actually slipping on you? Sometimes I can "tell" if I am slipping even without a turn-coordinator gauge, if I'm at low altitude and have a ground reference.It might be a case of the gauge showing slip where in fact none exists. ?RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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