Penrose right about consciousness?

[martin-w 3,267]

 

[martin-w 3,267]

Seems microtubules DO display quantum effects. If the research is correct, of course.

[jbaltazar67 2]

While intriguing I don't really agree with it because there is currently limited empirical evidence directly supporting this link between quantum mechanics and consciousness

[FBW737 519]

A quantum mechanical link was already established I think about a decade or more ago that the progeny of Migrating birds were finding the exact tree they nested in. Can't remember the details but I recall it being very similiar to this microtubules idea that Penrose is talking about. If I recall correctly the term microtubules was even used. I've always had great respect for Penrose but I never forget that he is a hard Materialist/Physicalist. My position is that mater is 'Real' but its not primordial. So I think he and others are totally wrong about consciousness. Their myopic naturalist world view has them barking up the wrong tree.

 

Edit: OK, now that I have watched the video I know its total click bait after the first sentence. 'Roger Penrose calms Microtubules are the Origin of Consciousnesses, Well it seems he was right! At least about the Microtubules!'.......... F-off!

I really have less and less respect for Hossenfelder everyday.

Edited May 13 by FBW737

[qqwertz 800]

First of all, I wouldn't say that superradiance is a quantum effect. It is a coherent superposition of light emitted from a number (let's call it N) of emitters, which increases the intensity of light like N^2. In normal media, when the emitters are not coherent, the intensity only grows like N. Hence, the observation of superradiance says nothing about quantum effects in the brain, although it is certainly intriguing.

More importantly, that whole consciousness and collapse of the wavefunction issue is a rather old hypothesis, going back to the 1940s. Modern understanding of quantum physics can almost remove the collapse entirely. If a quantum system interacts with its environment, and we do not observe all of this environment, then we will lose information. That information loss happens very quickly, and the quantum system of interest then behaves in the same way as the "collapse of the wavefunction" would suggest. If you want to study the collapse of a larger system (say, a cat and a radioactive nucleus in a box), you can let this larger system interact with an even wider environment and get again around the collapse. Hence, the collapse is not as mysterious anymore as one may think.

The only limit of this "decoherence theory" (loss of information) is when you want to study the collapse of the state of the entire cosmos. Apart from the practical impossibility to do such an experiment, this question is only of relevance in quantum cosmology. And guess what: Penrose is a cosmologist.

I am impressed by the superradiance experiment, but I am not buying into that consciousness idea. 

Peter

[martin-w 3,267]

6 hours ago, FBW737 said:

A quantum mechanical link was already established I think about a decade or more ago that the progeny of Migrating birds were finding the exact tree they nested in.

 

I think that was in regard to birds using quantum effects to navigate. Don't recall it was anything to do with microtubules or conciousness. It related to magnetoreception.

Quantum effects seem to be at work in regard to photosynthesis too. The so called "random walk".

Edited May 13 by martin-w

[qqwertz 800]

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

 

I think that was in regard to birds using quantum effects to navigate. Don't recall it was anything to do with microtubules or conciousness. It related to magnetoreception.

Quantum effects seem to be at work in regard to photosynthesis too. The so called "random walk".

I think you are correct. There is an entire field that deals with quantum effects in living beings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

[dmwalker 613]

The paper referenced in the video does support the idea of quantum effects in the microtubule bundles in the brain, doesn't it?

Our work highlights essential features of tryptophan chromophore networks in large aggregates of proteins forming biomolecular super-architectures such as the centriole (Figs. 1c, 2b, S5), axoneme (Fig. S4), and microtubule bundles in neurons.

Combined with experimental measurements of fluorescence QY in tubulin architectures, our simulations presented in this work demonstrate that collective and cooperative UV excitations in Trp mega-networks support robust quantum states in proteins with observable consequences even under thermal equilibrium conditions.

 

And Hossenfelder's conclusion is correct, isn't it?

there seems to be a big logical gap between “there are quantum effects in human brains” and  “quantum effects create consciousness”.  

[martin-w 3,267]

9 hours ago, qqwertz said:

I think you are correct. There is an entire field that deals with quantum effects in living beings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

 

37:46 for photosynthesis.

 

Edited May 13 by martin-w

[qqwertz 800]

Ah, yes, I remember the paper from last year on exciton condensates in plants. Pretty cool 🙂

[FBW737 519]

Since quantum mechanics stands out as the most successful theory ever its hardly surprising that every phenomenon in nature has something to do with it. That however does not preclude it being superseded by an as yet unknown paradigm and more powerful theory. Nor does it confirm a naturalist monism over a dualistic reality. So we've gone from Quantum Mechanics explains everything to Quantum Mechanic explains consciousness. Yippy!

[FBW737 519]

A final though. When does the wave function collapse into a brain.

 

Edited May 15 by FBW737