Where does anti-aliasing stand with P3D as of 2024?

[JonP01]

As an 18 year user of FSX and having gone straight from that venerable sim to P3D (version 4.5) just this week, I knew from very long prior research here at Avsim and the P3D forums that my greatest challenge was likely going to be finding anti-aliasing settings that work well. And this wasn't going to be just a P3D thing. Probably like most of us I digress into actual games and have found that once we got to DX11 and beyond, the only real way to truly tame the jaggies was throwing the kitchen sink at the title in terms of in game AA settings and then using DSR on top of that.

True to expectation, I think I can tame all aspects of P3D and get it bedded down nicely over the Winter here in Australia, slowly installing and configuring all the stuff I have bought such as my ORBX scenery, etc. I'm not worried about that. Infact if anything I am amazed at how slick and trouble free the experience has been. I haven't even felt any desire to get under the bonnet so to speak - Lockheed have done a great job on this since the old FSX days.

But as per my previous comments - stuffed if I can find a really good AA setting. I really can't. I have found an "OK" one and even that took two days of experimentation (with 99% failure) to arrive at. That setting is 4xSSAA, 16x anisotropic filtering, FSAA turned off (a horrible form of AA if you ask me) and then applying DSR at 4K over and above that - all that on a 27 inch 1080p monitor with an RTX3070. As for things like Nvidia inspector, despite me trying anything and everything over the last few days, it simply does not do anything at all in terms of anti-aliasing settings any more. The settings are completely ignored no matter what.

The result is that the anti-aliasing is borderline acceptable with the worst offenders being precisely what others have reported on the forums - for example, runway markings looking perfectly fine if you are near them but in the distance they are a jagged mess. The same thing happens to the edges of some objects from afar whereas up close they look perfect. And I note that despite what anti-aliasing is supposed to achieve (and what it achieves wonderfully in old DX9 titles), it leaves quite a few jagged edges in P3D that would have been dealt with deftly in FSX (and this is a comparison on the exact same machine - I was running it in dual boot mode up until last week - one for FSX under Windows 7 and a few other legacy applications that won't work under Windows 11 and Windows 11 for everything else).

So my question is: has their been any progress since all those prolonged discussions about the jagged lines that began appearing in P3D around the time of version 4 (version 5 was apparently even worse)? All the discussions I have read frustratingly peter out - which leads me to believe that people have just given up and live with it or those who refuse to have gone to the massive expense of 4K monitors along with top end video cards to run them - and even then with the AA turned right up and DSR often at 8K.

If anyone has anything definitive that progresses the discussion and issue beyond all those previous discussions that blamed anything and everything but then never cited an actual solution, I would certainly love to know! But after a few days solidly researching this, I have come to the conclusion that it is not fixable, is probably something to do with changes in Windows and there is nothing anyone (this side of the Windows fence) can do about it. At least if that is the case, I am not going to spend any more time tearing my hair out over it!!

 

Thanks

[Rogen]

Hi JonP01,

19 hours ago, JonP01 said:

As an 18 year user of FSX and having gone straight from that venerable sim to P3D (version 4.5) just this week, I knew from very long prior research here at Avsim and the P3D forums that my greatest challenge was likely going to be finding anti-aliasing settings that work well. And this wasn't going to be just a P3D thing. Probably like most of us I digress into actual games and have found that once we got to DX11 and beyond, the only real way to truly tame the jaggies was throwing the kitchen sink at the title in terms of in game AA settings and then using DSR on top of that.

Yes AA settings in P3D can be quite troublesome.

There's the inevitable runway markings that you'll never get past, although this will more often depend on the actual airport itself.

Plus the different versions of P3D handle AA differently...

For instance the FXAA option used to make quite a difference in the 32 bit versions but now appears to do stuff all.

And P3D version 5 has introduced it's own AA problems that are seemingly impossible to work around.

P3D v4.5 would be pretty much the best of the bunch atm, although I'm excluding v6 as I don't have it to report on.

Anyway have a look at these links, they might be of a assistance.

Also you might want to trial the Steam APP of Lossless Scaling, as it will allow P3D to run with less GPU load, which in turn means you can dial up AA and tune to better suit your hardware.

Cheers

 

[JonP01]

Thanks, I will look into those things.

I did discover last night (though it might already be known to others) that it is possible to get back control via Nvidia Inspector under Windows 11 which then allows for the sparse grid supersampling to be used in concert with MSAA within P3D. This was not possible for a period of time which explains why some people could get it to work and others couldn't no matter what they tried. It all depended on what updates they had (for Windows 10 at the time).

But under Windows 11, one now simply has to create a "profile" under Windows 11 Gaming / Graphics where an executable has to be selected. You then select the pd3 executable and check the "Don't use optimizations for windowed games" checkbox to be associated with it. Then save it. Next time you run P3D you have the option of experimenting with the sparse grid supersampling enabled by Nvidia Inspector. This definitely improved things noticeably in that 4xMSAA within P3D plus 4xSGSS via Inspector looked better than simply using 4xSSAA within P3D.

Of course it did not do much for the runway markings but it did improve them very slightly. As you say though, it often comes down to the aiurport itself.

I can't say that P3D looks that great though - I think it really needs a 4K monitor with DSR at 8K along with inspector enabled sparse grid supersampling - how much depends on the size of the monitor. Still, P3D confers some significant benefits over FSX in other respects.

[Rogen]

27 minutes ago, JonP01 said:

I can't say that P3D looks that great though - I think it really needs a 4K monitor with DSR at 8K along with inspector enabled sparse grid supersampling - how much depends on the size of the monitor. Still, P3D confers some significant benefits over FSX in other respects.

Yeah it seems with the change in bitness and subsequent DX updates LM have neglected good AA support.

I wouldn't say you needed to go to the extent of 8k with full SGSS though, for one thing it would probably bring your GPU to it's knees.

For myself once I had functional 30 Hz vsync and a 64 bit version I couldn't be happier, no more OOM's and vsync makes for super smooth simming.

Cheers

[JonP01]

I've just been experimenting further and I can now 100% confirm that setting up that gaming profile in Windows 11 allows the highest quality Nividia Inspector AA modes to be used in P3D (version 4.5, I cannot speak for later versions). And they will all actually work, just so long as you "match" off the multisampling methods across both P3D and Nvidia Inspector (so if you set 4xMSAA in P3D for example then you can have 16xS in Nvidia Inspector which is 4 x MSAA plus 2x2 supersampling). You can then add in whatever sparse grid setting you want and it will work in addition to that.

You can also flag Nvidia Inspector so that "Enhance the Application Setting" means "Override the Application Setting" in which case it will ONLY apply the Nvidia Inspector settings (which in my testing is the way to go). So you can theoretically go all the way up to 32xS plus 8xSGSS if you really wanted to - with DSR all on top of that. That is the maximum possible AA there is but at that point you have reached diminishing if not outright negative returns not to mention it cripples performance.

Bottom line is with this "concession" allowed in Windows 11 (to prevent Windows 11 using that special windowed optimization mode) I can now actually get P3D looking at least as good as FSX, EXCEPT for the runway marking - and ONLY the runway markings (and I have meticulously checked for anything else but it is only the runway markings relative to FSX). There is something about those runway markings in P3D that simply does not play well with any AA at all, though every increase in AA quality improves it a little. But everything else can be made to look really good, but you need a heck of a lot of horsepower to do it.

Since I am a stickler for getting rid of jaggies as the highest priority, I am happy to use 16xS and 4x SGAA along with DSR 4K. I just have to turn off dynamic lighting to maintain some semblance of performance.

Edited June 16, 2024 by JonP01

[JonP01]

Have just spent the entire evenign trying every single combination available within sim and inspector (now that setting the prepar3d.exe profile up in Windows 11 "frees" up the Inspector settings.

 

The very best combination I found purely in terms of image quality and nothing else (so total disregard for performance) was:

In P3D itself: 8xMSAA (if you select 8xSSAA it will look significantly worse).

Inspector: 4x4 supersampling plus 8 x Sparse Grid supersampling. The 4x4 supersampling looks better than selecting 32xS which would be the only logical alternative to try if seeking the best possible image quality.

Of course for all I know some of these settings "encroach" on each other and it contradicts current wisdom that having 8xMSAA in P3D would work with 4x4 supersampling, but it does. You can easily see the differences if you set up a slew scenario near a major airport and slew around. You can also easily see the difference between 4xMSAA and 8xMSAA in P3D by looking in spot view at your aircraft with the setting sun behind it in a clear sky (since that gives you a lot of contrast).

Outside of the runway markings (which the above settings reduce seemingly as much as they are ever going to), I'd say the sim purely in terms of anti-aliasing reminds me of what I saw from my Voodoo 5500 22 years ago when I ran it at 4 x supersampling on a 17 inch 1024 x 768 monitor!!

Does not seem like we have come that far in terms of the removal of aliasing artefacts though of course we have moved forward a heck of lot on terms of realistic looking images.

 

[JonP01]

On 6/16/2024 at 8:54 AM, Rogen said:

And P3D version 5 has introduced it's own AA problems that are seemingly impossible to work around.

P3D v4.5 would be pretty much the best of the bunch atm, although I'm excluding v6 as I don't have it to report on.

 

I'm just curious - what are the "new" AA problems with version 5? I had read somewhere that they had actually resolved the runway marking problems but introduced others!!

I was reading a DirectX12 developer blog and I suspect the problems emanate from application developers being able to specify exactly how their in-application anti-aliasing works. So if they for example are trying to make a title run better, they may skimp on the visuals and we users do not have the brute force over-riding tools to undo that like we had in the old days.

I only ask about version 5 because I am tossing up getting a licence for that as well, if only to see if I prefer one over the other. But I don't want to waste $60 US if the AA is going to be worse even with my (for me) newly discovered ability to at deploy some Nvidia Inspector settings.

[JonP01]

Probably easier that I see for myself and can tinker on my own machine. I have just purchased a licence for Version 5 as well and I will hope LM are true to their word that if it is worse than the V4.5 that I have in terms of what matters to me, I can get a refund within the 14 day limit. I will actually know within a few days which one I prefer. It might be possible with the new features in Windows 11 to bring back some control over the AA as is the case with Version 4.5 or that for me the AA problems with V5 are not as bad as the ones with V4. I am doubting it but merely doubting it - I would rather see for myself given this software is probably a decade at least worth of commitment in my case. Plus there are enough people raving about Version 5 versus Version 4 that I am curious to try it.

[JonP01]

Well I loaded up version 5 last night. This version does not require the aforementioned Windows 11 tweaks that version 4 requires. So you can avail yourself of the "full screen optimisations" and you can still use Nvidia Inspector to apply better quality AA. You can onyl do this on Windows 11 with version 4 by disabling those optimisations - both within the Windows 11 Graphics settings both also via a compatibility change on the executable (right click / compatibility tab). If you don't do both then P3D will crash the second time it loads a scenario to 100%.

Anyway, I was thrilled to note that the runway problem is totally fixed - no aliasing problems at all. But it is replaced by a worse problem - taxway signs sparkle away at night on final approach looking like a randomised sparkler show. Horrible. And I couldn't do anything to fix it.

Will keep trying various settings but if I cannot get rid of this then I will have to settle for version 4, despite the obvious improvements in other areas.

[Sparkrite]

Maybe I'm missing something here, you title the thread "Where does anti-aliasing stand with P3D as of 2024?", but then go and used two discontinued versions that were released years ago?

Why not use the latest and only supported version in 2024 namely Version 6?

At least then you can see" Where does anti-aliasing stand with P3D as of 2024?".

@JonP01

I would also like to know the answer to this and would find your reports interesting, however not so much with older discontinued versions that have been "done to death" in this regard but with a 2024 version.

But, if I am misreading something then my question is superfluous and can be ignored.

Edited June 19, 2024 by Sparkrite

[JonP01]

Unfortunately I don't see myself going to version 6 due to a lack of support for the enormous amount of payware content I have amassed over the years.

[Sparkrite]

1 hour ago, JonP01 said:

Unfortunately I don't see myself going to version 6 due to a lack of support for the enormous amount of payware content I have amassed over the years.

I understand where you are coming from, however, while I may not have as many addons as yourself, (I have quite a lot, though) practically all work without issue with V6.

 

So, I wasn't missing anything, therefore it must follow that the thread title is somewhat of a misrepresentation.

[JonP01]

Well then I'll leave you all to it. I am obviously not worthy of all of your exalted company. Have fun.

[Sparkrite]

2 hours ago, JonP01 said:

Well then I'll leave you all to it. I am obviously not worthy of all of your exalted company. Have fun.

Obviously totally up to you if you want to take that approach.

I was merely pointing out that to talk about AA in legacy versions of P3D in a thread titled "Where does anti-aliasing stand with P3D as of 2024?" is not only, IMO,misleading but could be perceived, by some, as being disengenious to LM as it has really nothing to do with where AA stands with P3D in 2024.

A lot of changes to their graphics engine, which now includes FSR and DLSS, along with many other modifications, took place in V6 as of 2024.

A simple edit of the title to reflect what the thread is actually about, would have been more befitting.

Maybe something like :- " Anti-aliasing Settings in Legacy Versions of P3D" ? Just something that does not give the impression that this is the latest in P3D when it most certainly is not.

2 hours ago, JonP01 said:

I am obviously not worthy of all of your exalted company. Have fun.

Sarcasm is never really appreciated and I think unwarrented. 😒

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by Sparkrite

[Ronda_sim]

I use v4 and my antialiasing is pulled to the max. I will share screenshot, so you can tell me how do you find the graphical quality of my sim. I am btw still on v4.5 HF3.