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Sonar5

Bye Bye AVSIM!!!

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I Have had enough of the Moderator Forums here, This place has become less and less for the benefit for those that have contributed to FS and is lost touch with the base, thanks for the support in the past Tom but I have had enough of the Moderator Forum!I know the Moderators have there work cut out for them at times, but to put "this will cause us to work more" )as this is really what has become the issue) in front of some decent and well intention post by those who give this place its spine, well I dont get it, totaly ####### me off!Dont worry I wont let the door hit me on the way out. :)(see the locked thread on SDK petition)Nice work!Paul Leatzaw

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Aren't you rushing it, Paul? I mean, can't you get upset without wanting to leave? Hope you don't mean it...All the best.

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Paul, you calmed me down yesterday and provided some awesome help...which I appreciated. You should also take a deep breath. Stay in touch if you do split the scene.bob@blarg.net or bob@w-link.netB

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Hi Paul,I have to concur. It is just this kind of reaction that further frustrates and "turns off" developers. Another nail in the coffin so to speak.Further, it has been my experience over the past few years that 99% of heated discussion on these forums is good and carried on by a bunch of mostly adult, responsible and polite individuals who have a genuine interest and love of flight simming. ( Better than no interest at all!)I have to wonder that if MS is reluctant to respond to our plees and sites like Avsim choose to further reduce our options to be heard, why are we investing so much time and money? Why should WE care? No reasonable person would challenge the commitment Avsim has made to the community. However, I have to believe that shutting down this thread on such an important subject at best shows lack of consideration and poor understanding of the issues.Oh and Paul, I share your frustration.Regards,Chris Wilkes>I Have had enough of the Moderator Forums here, This place >has become less and less for the benefit for those that have >contributed to FS and is lost touch with the base, thanks >for the support in the past Tom but I have had enough of the >Moderator Forum! >>I know the Moderators have there work cut out for them at >times, but to put "this will cause us to work more" )as this >is really what has become the issue) in front of some decent >and well intention post by those who give this place its >spine, well I dont get it, totaly ####### me off! >>Dont worry I wont let the door hit me on the way out. :) >>(see the locked thread on SDK petition) >>Nice work! >>Paul Leatzaw

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Paul,I 100% agree with youthere was absolutely no need to lock that threadit is absolutely rubbish to say that such a thread will lead to anger and heavy discussions,it will lead to more support for those people who make all those wonderful add-onsthat petition was an excellent idea to increase the support for our (wonderful)designers,so why would you want to stop that?you want the designers to have less to make their add-ons?man,do you work for Microsoft or so?I bet this thread will be locked as well (if not even deleted),following current Avsim's policy

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I agree with Naji, Paul. I can understand your frustration, but Avsim has made it's position clear on discourse involving what MS should and shouldn't do. Getting ###### at the moderators is aiming your anger at the wrong target. MS has proven itself insensitive to the voices of the community (especially the hard working and dedicated addon folks), so why not direct your frustration at them? I'll tell you why... because your words will fall on deaf ears there.Many involved in the forums here at Avsim have enjoyed your humor and unique perspective. And God only knows how many fellow simmers have benefited from your assistance on hardware issues. I can't help but believe that you in at least some small way have enjoyed all you've done for the many folks here you've helped. Why throw that away? Your anger may be clouding your perspective now, but this post makes no sense. Your efforts to improve the simming experience will only suffer, and not because of Avsim. Because of MS's indifference. You walk away and their indifference wins. And don't make the mistake of thinking another site will make the situation at MS better. The most you can hope for at any other simming site is maybe... maybe the chance to voice your frustrations with MS. But we all know how futile that is.As a friend I would ask you to take a moment to think about the positive experiences you've enjoyed here. Are you willing to toss those experiences aside? Is Avsim wrong for wishing not to allow what always seem to degrade into flaming arguments of rhetoric (directed at a levithan that has proven it's lack of interest in the hard core simmer)? Certainly there are more positive routes of enjoyment here. Only you can decide for yourself if the good you've experienced here is worth more than the wasted bandwith directed at MS. I hope to see you here as always, and all of us can simply chalk this up to a dedicated simmer and forum member venting his emotions (uh... jeez, just like everybody else here :-lol )Hey, maybe one of these would help :-beerchug Regards,

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here is your leaving present, some cheese & whine:

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Well Paul, the decision is yours of course. We are caught between the devil and deep blue sea. Damned if we do, and damned if we don't. The issues with the SDK's, patches, MS' supposed indifference, ad nauseam, have been run into the ground here, over and over again. And almost without exception, those threads turned into flame wars, usually aided and abetted by the tactics of a few - who deliberately use the opportunities to bash their current target. Aiden was right in locking that thread down; we know what is going to happen, so why let it? It has all been said before, and will be said again.As for the concept of a petition itself... Why bother? Silly question? I don't think so. Why? Because the MS folks read this, and many other forums daily. They know what your gripes are; they know what suggestions you have made and what you would like to see fixed, incorporated or removed. Everyday that YOU participate here, and the thousands of others that contribute, is a day where your petition is heard. How do I know? Because I have met them and we have discussed this very subject. And if you come to the convention in September, you can hear it from the MS horse's mouth yourself.Quitting here is going to accomplish just the opposite of what you wish it to. You may find another forum (god knows there are now hundreds of them), but you voice will be lost to the collective AVSIM community, which MS does listen to. So, you aren't walking out on AVSIM; you are walking out on this community and all that IT can accomplish (in a mature, reasoned, and non-flamming way).

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I LOVE Avsim and It is the best Place for People who Love Flight simulator (still can not belive it is free :)..........)The Site I used to visit was What makes me realise HOW good this Place is !It is a Great Place Full of Great things and great people who Spend there time Making it This good :)I think anybody says goodbye to AVSIM says goodbye To There Home and it is real Lonley out there :)Anniette xxxxxxxxxxx

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I'm sorry to hear this Paul....Some of your projects inspired me to become involved with scenery design. I hope you get a chance to at least drop me an email to let me know how you're getting on with landclass assistant!I hope you reconsider, and at least remain as a poster in the forum...John

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While I understand Paul's concern I have to agree with Tom in that walking away won't help...look at all that has been done here and at Flightsim.com (also a great site) and what has been incorporated into fs so far. Yes, I would like to see better support and SDKs for 3rd party but has anyone stopped to think that the MSFS team may have their hands tied in certain things? Just my 2 cents.

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They do have their hands tied; they are specifically precluded from participating in forums (and newsgroups) like this as a matter of policy. That is why you do not see them participate here, as much as they would like to. (EDIT)... but they can read until the cows come home. :)

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Paul,Do reconsider your position. I have had some of my threads blocked and some Avsim have taken a risk with and let them run.Its a difficult shot to call as I believe that no pain no gain. Sometimes things need to be discussed especially if they are of a sensitive nature.I also believe Microsoft do keep an eye on the forums hence my continual posting on weather and flight modelling ;-)I can also understand Avsim being cautious on letting repetative subjects run if their sole result is to wind people up.I started a thread here on freeware authors which made me few friends and I came away wishing I hadnt bothered.So my advice is to stay, dust yourself down and live to fight another day, you never achieve a thing by running away.Peter

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Paul,I for one can agree with your frustration at Microsoft. I share it. But please don't take out your frustration on Avsim. If these forums weren't strictly moderated then I'd be leaving. Because without the moderators, every one of these forums would get filled with childish, immature tripe (see immediately preceeding message). Very little useful communication would ever take place. Go visit some of the open usenet news groups and you'll see what I mean. The folks here at Avsim do a terrific job providing us with one of the best flght simming resources around. It's costly and time consuming on their part. In my mind not only do they have the right to keep a lid on things here, they have an obligation to do so. They've made their position on the Microsoft controversy quite clear, and (IMHO) they've been very tolerant. However, further discussion of the topic here is just going to increase the frustration and anger and do nothing to abate it. I hope you reconsider your decision.Mike Stone

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Tom, I'm in complete agreement with your policies. If AVSIM users (and of course this doesn't apply to the vast majority of them) could handle themselves in a mature, non-personal manner in forums, there woudn't be a need for moderation. As in many things, it's a few bad people that ruin it for everyone.MicroSoft isn't indifferent to our opinions, they just don't want to address them because there would be no end to it. I say that as a developer experiencing just a tiny hair of what they would. They have to put their foot down somewhere. On my site, TaxiwaySigns.com, I get 20-30 emails a day requesting this airport or that airport. I've stopped responding to them. I wrote down the requests until my list hit about 300 airports. Given that each one takes hours to complete (followed by weeks of testing) and that running the site and new application development leaves me about 2 hours each month to work on them, it'd be FS2102 before I got done with #300. So I've just barely seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Microsoft would get if they opened the floodgates.Is Microsoft greedy? Probably. But it is a business, afterall, that has shareholders to report to (me). And by the same token, it's just not possible to address every grievance...financially. If people are that unhappy with a lack of a patch, go back to FS2000...it had a couple of patches to please those "heck"-bent on patches. Now that I have FS2k2, here's my comment on FS2000: been there, seen that, bought the t-shirt, didn't like the ride. Progress isn't perfect, but it moves on.Thomas LinTaxiwaySigns.comVolunteers (testers and designers) needed, please visit the site for information

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Paul, I understand where you're coming from and sympathize with you. I have had many threads locked on me that I either started or was very involved in the conversation, and I remember how I felt after each time - I was ###### at Avsim for locking a thread that I (and others who were involved in the conversation) thought was a valuable discussion. I thought that some of the conversations were even closed due to Avsim's relationship with certain companies, and this ###### me off even more. Sometimes you just have to take the good along with the bad though. However, despite its short-comings, Avsim is still the best flight sim site on the net, and I'm sure you'll agree, Paul. Well, if you decide not to stay, drop me a line sometime (flyermax2k1@yahoo.com). Here's to ya! :-beerchugMax Cowgill

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Paul,I fully support Avsim in whatever decisions they make. Period!!!Here is why.I hope you understand this in no way underscores your decision to stay or not. I could really give a rip as it is your decision to make one way or the other. But before you go, here is my nickel. (Can never give just two cents)Thank you very much for your contributions on this Privately owned and run forum. You helped out many a folk with both your wisdom and your knowledge of computers and you should be commended for that.But I disagree with you on your tactics. Did you send an email to Tom first for an explanation as to why it was locked, or did you just try to make a proverbial scene by stating your intentions to leave.I am a GUEST here, and I agree to abide by their rules. Even I break them from time to time, and I get some of threads deleted that I have posted in. It goes with the territory.Was there a better approach to the original authors intent on a petition. Well, I can only speak for myself, but what if the Author designed a simple webpage for a petition, and included that link in his signature or posted the link in the general discussion forum.Microsoft does have a Feedback address and I believe that it can be found easily in either documentation or at MS's website.I also take a issue with this statement you made:"This place has become less and less for the benefit for those that have contributed to FS and is lost touch with the base"Did you really think about this statement before you hit the Post Message button. I could be wrong (rare, but it happens :-) ), I don't feel like this is a site only for the benefit of those who have contributed to FS, and if it ever becomes that, I will probably leave, IMHO.This to me represenst simply a FAMILY of flightsim enthusiasts who have a choice to read or not read a thread, and the Management has a responsibility to help keep it civil for the sake of the community, IMHO. That is my take on this.Paul, I do hope you don't leave, but if you do, then maybe you are right. This community may not be for you. But I think it is. I may disagree with you from time to time, but that's ok, as it happens in families all the time. christian has 123 posts, so surely he has seen the other dozens of SDK posts and patch posts and this issue has been beaten to death. And believe me, I am no great fan of what MSFT does from time to time. But he could have, and probably still can go about his goal in a manner consistent with Avsim's rules. Remember, this is not a public forum, and Avsim allows discourse in their policies as well. Like this thread. It is not locked but guess what Paul. It should have been posted in the General Discussion Forum, not this one.Even I took a chance and posted my SNJ pics and links most likely violating Avsim's policy. There may not have been harm in what I did, as they were on my server, but if they pulled the thread, I would not have said a word about it, because I respect their site. Again, I hope you rethink your position, and stick around. There are many good people here, and you may not be missed, but it would be a little less feisty here without you. And I like feistyness.. :-)Good Luck andBest Regards,Joe :-)PS- I checked on the door here and it is actually a revolving door making it pretty difficult to hit you in the behind. So Just let it go by once and come on back in, the weather is fine. :-)******************************Picture Gallery of My Flight in a 1945 SNJ-6 on June 1st, 2002Joliet, Illinoishttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/FrameSet.htm******************************.http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

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It can get pretty frustrating I know!As stated previously, it's old news and beaten to death.We have a saying here at the Equestrian center, It's no good flogging a dead horse, you can't make him drink!I was astonished that the question even arose.All those Microsoft guys are busy with CFS3 right now frantically working away to make sure it's OK for fall release.Microsoft checks these forums, they know what's what and what the feeling is.

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Tom,With all due respect I will try to express myself here without the un-needed attack style that accomplishes very little.I feel that this forum has lost its sense of underdog, grass roots heck, I don

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Your points are all valid, Paul. Just as are mine and everyone elses. The questions you now have to answer for yourself are this: Will your walking away from this site accomplish anything good? Will you benefit from making a departure?And if you feel so strongly about such a petition (and we all feel it couldn't hurt) can you get more mileage from your effort by staying or going?Regards,

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Wait a minute!!!...... start the A/C & cool off! When we get real "######" about the consequences of this virtual reality, then step back & think about it! ALL this is, is a virtual reality, a game, entertainment or a training tool. Microsoft does NOT owe US anything, nor are they obligated to divulge all their trade secrets. Strongarm attempts such as petitions or developers pulling files seem to have little effect------- because A: it's NOT that important in the "real life" scheme of things, & B: It's only for the benefit of a small percentage of Microsoft's flight simulation customers. As has been previously stated, MS employees do read the contents of many of these forums & DO make it a point of incorporating ideas into their future products.The choices are CLEAR............. don't let this "virtual reality" take precedence over actual reality to the point of becoming completely upset!! And BTW, I'm guilty of that myself!! :), or lastly, get rid of the product. But at least I do draw the line in attempting to force someone such as Avsim or Microsoft into my way of thinking...... about something that is essentially nothing more than a GAME!L.Adamson

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>With all due respect I will try to express myself here >without the un-needed attack style that accomplishes very >little. Why would you think that style was necessary in the first place?>I feel that this forum has lost its sense of underdog, grass >roots heck, I don

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I once had a business meeting to attend in Hamburg, Germany. An Italian collegue and I flew into together. I drove and he navigated. I had been there numerous times in the past, and knew how to get around reasonably well. But, he insisted on navigating, and he had never been there before. Coming out of the airport in our shiny new rental car, he instructed me to turn the opposite direction from that which I knew to be the correct direction to go. At length, and in somewhat of a time constraint, I hurriedly explained to him that he was not correct and that we should go the opposite directions, citing the signs as road maps to his success as a navigator. Of course, I did this with somewhat elevated volume and probably way too fast for a non-native English speaker to safely absorb. A couple of well aimed expletives in his direction probably didn't help. His response?"Tom, you confuseded me."Larry, you confuseded me. :)

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>Larry, you confuseded me. :) I know!!!...... (sounds like a bunch of garble to me...delete it!) :)L.Adamson

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No WAY DUDE.. I am going to let that stand for future use! I am sure that there are some simmers who reside on the "dark side" that will surely quote your message above in the future! :-lolGod, I just love this hobby, er, affliction.

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