LIRP to LIME approach problem

[igorbischi 11]

I had a problem with a flight from LIRP to LIME. At about 30 miles S from lime I was vectored by approach to 115. At 13 miles SE from LIME I was vectored to 315, to intercept the localizer runway 29. I was told to mantain 6000 feet (I was at 6000 yet, qnh = 1000). The problem is that at 13 miles from the airport, 6000 feet, is too late to intercept the ILS descent path; indeed the needle of the glide slope was at the bottom of the navigation display. To be sure i didn't make any mistake I did the flight twice, but the result was the same. I am afraid it is a bug (I am sorry for my english).Igor Bischi

[Ray Proudfoot 9,040]

Hi Igor,Did you hear a call for you to descend to either FL120 or FL110? If so that means you need to be down to that Flight Level (still on STD pressure) 40 miles from LIME. If you were given a 90 degree heading before reaching FL120 or FL110 it means you didn't make the crossing restriction. You'll have that confirmed in the critique at the end of the flight.Fly it again paying particular attention to making that crossing restriction and ensure you stay on STD pressure until you hear "Altimeter check". At that point tune to QNH pressure.Hope that helps.

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Igor,The 6000 feet is because the msa for LIRE is over 4000 feet, so that sounds about right.However the vectors can't be as you describe. If you were 30 miles S of the airport and vectored to 115 that would have taken you further away from the airport.Could you post your entire flight plan so we can get a better idea of what might have happened.All the best,John

[igorbischi 11]

I did hear the call to descend to FL120. I made all the crossing restrictions as usually, and I switched to qnh only when I heard altimeter check.Igor>Hi Igor,>>Did you hear a call for you to descend to either FL120 or>FL110? If so that means you need to be down to that Flight>Level (still on STD pressure) 40 miles from LIME. If you were>given a 90 degree heading before reaching FL120 or FL110 it>means you didn't make the crossing restriction. You'll have>that confirmed in the critique at the end of the flight.>>Fly it again paying particular attention to making that>crossing restriction and ensure you stay on STD pressure until>you hear "Altimeter check". At that point tune to QNH>pressure.>>Hope that helps.

[igorbischi 11]

Ok for msa over 400 then approach=6000 feet. The problem could be I was vectored to intecept the LOC too close to the airport (13 miles).About the 115 heading You are right. It wasn't 115 but 015, I made a mistake when I wrote it down. Now I am away from home. When I'll be home again this evening (italy local time) I'll send you the flight plan.Thank you.Igor>Hi Igor,>>The 6000 feet is because the msa for LIRE is over 4000 feet,>so that sounds about right.>>However the vectors can't be as you describe. If you were 30>miles S of the airport and vectored to 115 that would have>taken you further away from the airport.>>Could you post your entire flight plan so we can get a better>idea of what might have happened.>>All the best,>>John

[Ray Proudfoot 9,040]

Hi Igor,Okay, it sounds like you understand things well. We'll take a look at your flight plan and get back to you.Cheers,

[John Burgess 0]

Thanks Igor.That makes perfect sense. The 015 would be the base leg. I'm just surprised RC didn't take you downwind before turning you to base.I'd like to test this plan. If you could let us know the details that would help a lot.The altitude at which RC puts you onto the localiser will always be higher than the MSA for the airport. We try and avoid flying you into terrain ;-)All the best,John

[igorbischi 11]

Ok, this is the flight plan (in fs2004 format). This is the first time I send an attachment, so I hope I did it right. The original name was LIRP-LIME.pln. I made it with fsbuild 2.2. The cruise fligth level is 220. For the flight I used the plane Pilatus PC12 by flight one, and for LIME I used the freeware ISD-Project airport, with the afcad by alessandro mozzi (lime-afcad-1.0.zip in avsim file library).Thank you.Igor

[John Burgess 0]

Thanks Igor,It seemed to come through fine.I've got the same scenery for LIME so will hopefully get a chance to fly this tomorrow.All the best,John

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Igor,I just flew your plan without a problem but there was one major difference.70 miles from LIME I was given a crossing restriction of FL110 (a nearside crossing restriction so RC was intending to send me to rwy 29).However you were given a crossing restriction of FL120 (a farside crossing restriction suggesting RC was intending to send you to rwy 11).When you contacted approach were you told to expect vectors to rwy 29 or did you have to request that runway?After contacting approach did you make any special requests (an iap, a short final?)Approach gave me initial instructions to fly heading 015 descend to FL90 (when about 36 miles from LIME).I was then assigned FL80, then FL 70 then altitude 6000.I was then given the 315 heading to intercept the localiser which I did about 17 miles from the airport, just after intercepting the gs.Not quite perfect but almost.All the best,John

[igorbischi 11]

To be honest, when I wrote yesterday I remembered FL120, but I'm not sure, maybe it was 110. I didn't ask anything to approach. I was told to expect vectors to runway 29. I didn't make any special request, only a "default" ILS vectored approach. Maybe the only difference between my flight and your is the localizer intercept distance: 13 miles for me and 17 for you. I'll check it again with a third flight and then I'll tell you.Thank you.Igorp.s.in the RC4 options which aircraft type did you set? I set turboprop. Could it modify the approach localizer distance policy?>Hi Igor,>>I just flew your plan without a problem but there was one>major difference.>>70 miles from LIME I was given a crossing restriction of FL110>(a nearside crossing restriction so RC was intending to send>me to rwy 29).>However you were given a crossing restriction of FL120 (a>farside crossing restriction suggesting RC was intending to>send you to rwy 11).>When you contacted approach were you told to expect vectors to>rwy 29 or did you have to request that runway?>After contacting approach did you make any special requests>(an iap, a short final?)>>Approach gave me initial instructions to fly heading 015>descend to FL90 (when about 36 miles from LIME).>I was then assigned FL80, then FL 70 then altitude 6000.>I was then given the 315 heading to intercept the localiser>which I did about 17 miles from the airport, just after>intercepting the gs.>Not quite perfect but almost.>>All the best,>>John

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Igor,Good point about the aircraft type. I had jet but that shouldn't affect where we intercept the localizer which is governed by the altitude at which the interception occus. It's a nice route though. I'll fly it again as a turboprop when I have time!All the best,John

[igorbischi 11]

Some new about the lirp-lime flight.I had two new flight (same flight plane). The first one was ok, RC4 did a good job, so I was vectored to intercept the localizer about 20 miles SE from lime. The second one wasn't right. I was told to descend to FL120 within 30 miles (I did in in 15 miles). Then approach gave me instruction to descend to 9000 (if I remeber well) and then to 6000, and gave me 015 heading. Few minutes later I was vectored to intercept the localizer (heading 315) at about 13 miles from lime, mantaining 6000 feet with qnh 1009 (like in the previous flights). Here:xoomer.virgilio.it/igor.bischi/Screenshot.jpgxoomer.virgilio.it/igor.bischi/Screenshot2.jpgis a link to two screenshots. The first one is the plane cockpit a few second before ILS clearance to runway 29. As you can see, the glide-slope is already centered. The second one is the fsnav screenshot of the plane position taken in the first screenshot.Thank you (and good new year).Igorp.s.apart from this issue, RC4 is a very good improvement from RC3!

[ronzie 21]

http://www.vatita.net/?dir=download&pagina=planning/chartsis where I got the chart of the area you are talking about. At 9.5 dme from the threshold the GS at at 4,000. At 13 dme I'm guessing maybe around 5,000 - time for Professor Trig on this one - so the GS might be just below you. The (25 nm around ORI VOR) MSA for that quadrant on the plate is 8800. RC pulls in its own average terrain peaks and adds 2000 feet per the MSA setting on the controller's page, so you could lower that margin if you wish. apparently the terrain closer in lowers within the range RC measures so it gives you 6,000 for an intersect. From the few topographical contours on the plate it appears the terrain rapidly drops.You can fly with an arrival NOTAMS option which will let you follow the plate altitude. The plate shows arrival at 4,000 12.5 DME flat to 9.5 DME bearing 280 in.I did not download from that same site linked above the arrival STAR but you could look at it for terrain MSAs along the recommended arrival route.Back to your original question. If you were a bit further out than 13 nm it could be the GS would be centered.If you want to fly the downloaded STAR and approach, you could request an IAP from the approach menu and avoid vectors. If you have a navigation display loaded with the flight plan including the STAR arrival waypoints you need based on arrival direction (GPS or FMC driven) that might be a better option for flying in "valleys" leading to a runway or from rapidly decreasing terrain elevation. RC was not too far off, though.BTW, the Italian Scenery Design project, files hosted on AVSIM, has some nice Italian airports like LIRF and LIEO, plus Milano. There are more but these are FS2002 that require you to get patch files. The links to that site and other Italian scenery links are here:http://www.vatita.net/?dir=download&pagina=scenery/scenery(You are not required to be a registered VATSIM/VATITA user to get these downloads.)

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Igor,I've tried this flight twice now. Once with a Crossing Restriction of FL110, once with a crossing restriction of FL120 and both times I was given the 015 vector along with the first descent instruction. That put me on the localiser about 16/17 miles from touchdown at almost the same moment that I captured the gs.Why you are not getting the 015 vector until the second descent instruction I'm not sure. If I get time I'll try again with my pressure set at 1009.All the best,John