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Guest GabeThePilot

Problem with Vectors - Exasperated !

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Guest GabeThePilot

Hi All,Can someone explain to me the procedure in a light GA aircraft for landing after requesting vectors.I have only ever used ILS approaches before and I am always lined up nicely for my final approach.But today I was going to Airport X that had a 80 degree runway and it was incorporated correctly into my flight plan. when I got to within 50 miles, I changed my mind and asked for a VOR approach - then 5 minutes later I decided I wouldn't as the VOR was a Tacan and I don't think I have the correct equipment in my old beaver.So, I re-requested a Vectored approach.all went well until I was 30 miles out at 2500ft - per ATC's request and on a 45 degree course.Now I was then told to fly this heading until established and gave me clearance to land.Now, I'm 30 miles out - I cannot see the airport at all, and flying 45degree heading to land on a 80 degree runway. This cannot be right....is it ?I enclose an image showing my plan in red and the route I was sent on....I continued on the final trajectory until I gave up and asked for visual......So I shot stright past the airport - no further instructions were offered.Then, when I asked for visual approach, he handed me off the Tower who gave me permission to land - I wasn't handed to tower last time.So what is occurring ?I attach a sreenshot showing the red flightplan route - planned - and the blue shows my vectored route. Now if I had instruments to find the runway...no problem - but I don't and I cannot see the airport from 30 miles out - that's why I request vectors...but they leave me on that final 45 degree course even though I need to turn to 90 degrees at some point to land.Thnx

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this happens all the time at airport x? what's the airport? what's the airport's msa? what does rc think the airport's msa is?when you are on a near straight in approach, regardless of the distance, it is up to you to get on the right heading at the right time.watch the rc display. when the bearing to the airport is about equal to the runway heading, start flying the runway heading. when you start receiving the localizer, make your corrections left and right of course to get on the localizer.jd

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The 45 degree intercept to an 80 degree runway is correct for most conditions. I can't make out your map too well.What normally occurs is if you are using a localizer (and are within range) and you have tunned the nav and set the course for the CDI, the localizer needle will start to move to center at that point you should turn inbound and track. If you are using a VOR on or near the field similar procedures apply if you are out of localizer range. You can then switch to localizer when close enough.If you have a GPS when your bearing to the airport nearly agrees with the runway heading turn inbound to track the heading.The RC window will also show the bearing and distance to the airport. When it gets near 80 degrees turn inbound and track if you do not have a GPS.If there is no glideslope you will need to use DME (ILS or VOR) to follow a vertical profile, or the distance in the RC window.It would be good to still have an approach plate for the airport. If it is an FAA airport, try flightaware.com and put in the ICAO then click resources to see it it is listed. If so go to terminal procedures and download the bundle.You can also get plates from the FAA download at:http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

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Guest GabeThePilot

Hi,(1) MSA not relevant....it's pretty much in open ground at sea level I think.(2) I know how to make Localiser guided approaches - they work great - as I said, ILS approaches are fine.(3) But I am 30 miles from the airport and am expecting to be guided to the runway from my last flightplan waypoint - see screenshot attached - when I am not given them I ask for a VOR approach then change my mind and ask for Vectors once again....or maybe I ask for a specfic reason: a fog has descended and my GPS is F@@##eD....so I ask for directions to get me down,at least so I am close enough to see the PAPI lights. But,leaving me on a 45degree course when the runway is 30 miles on a 80degree bearing is not helpful.So what are the vectors meant for if not to line me up at a reasonable distance ? As I said, I was not requesting an ILS approach. The airport (EGXT by the way), doesn't have an ILS system anyways.Cheers

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Guest GabeThePilot

Just read Ronnies reply - again, I didn't make myself very clear in my original post. I usually do ILS approaches and everything is REALLY great. OK. This time, I decided to use a runway without one and expected to be vectored from my final waypoint to the runway - as you are in the default ATC if you ask for directions....But after a bit of messing around and changing my mind, they started to vector me....3 turns were made as you can see...but I was expecting a final turn of around 80-90 degrees which would have put me in spititng ditance of the PAPI's...but no.I wasn't handed to Tower and nothing else happened and so I sailed on by towards Birmingham - not nice !So I returned asked for a visual and great...suddenly I was given permission to land and handed off to the tower.Now if this was real - and there was a mist and or my GPS was knackered etc.....what would I have done.Why can't they vector me to the runway - no point otherwise. 30 miles is too far to see the runway in 100% visibility in the day and how do they know I'm carrying IFR instruments - after all I can still file an IFR flightplan even if I'm a VFR pilot in a plane with no IFR instruments....can' t I ?The options in the screen were for Visual Approach or Vectors. If I can see the airport and ask for a VA...they tell me to land and give me the wind speed. As I approach they tell me I have permission to land as I fet to within 5 miles - a little late probably ! If I can't see the airport, I ask for Vectors - that's why I need them...I can't see the airport. So why leave me high and dry 30 miles away ?

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maybe it's terminology/phraseology that is the issue.if this airport had an ils, and you did nothing, approach would have vectored you towards the airport, then downwind, then base, then intercept. there would not be any vector to final. you are turned to an intercept heading, and it is up to you to intercept the localizer, turn, and then contact approachif you has asked for an iap approach, ils/ndb/vor, whatever, you're not going to hear from approach again, until you're lined up and 7 miles out. then you are switched to towerif you ask for an iap approach, and then request vectors, you're reverting to the first scenario. you're not going to get a vector to finalwithout an ils, you can still manage the first scenerario, as i described.take the vector to intercept, watch the rc display, when the bearing to the airport is near the runway heading, turn to the runway heading.i mistakenly said earlier that when you received the localizer, true up your course.in your case, you're going to have to wait until you have the runway in sight to true up your heading.if you can't see the runway, you're probably going to need some sort of precision approach procedure. ils/vor/ndb(?) to get on the ground.rc vectors are not vectors to final. they are vectors to intercept.does that help? or have i muddied the waters even more?jd

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Point of real world procedure:You can not file an IFR plan if you are not IFR certified and the aircraft is not IFR certified which includes required avionics maintenance schedules and a list of minimum avionics equipment including backup of some kind. This also includes backup power.Some airports have PAR precision approach radar and only some controllers are current in the procedure. For military airports it is routine. For civilian airports it is the exception.RC does not do PAR approaches with horizontal and vertical guidance.If you are under VFR and not IFR certified you would be expected to have an alternate in mind forecasted to be in VFR conditions with extra and allowed time to get to from your original destination. You could also U-Turn and proceed to an alternate in the clear. That is one of the first things a VFR pilot is tought: Do a 180 backtracking your VFR path and land at an airport in the clear.ATC's responsibility if a localizer is present is to vector you to an interecept. In some cases there is no full approach radar in which case you would be vectored to line up with an IAF after which you will be told to do your own navigation to complete the approach. You still would need functioning IFR capable equipment.

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Guest GabeThePilot

>maybe it's terminology/phraseology that is the issue.>>if this airport had an ils, and you did nothing, approach>would have vectored you towards the airport, then downwind,>then base, then intercept. there would not be any vector to>final. you are turned to an intercept heading, and it is up to>you to intercept the localizer, turn, and then contact>approach>>if you has asked for an iap approach, ils/ndb/vor, whatever,>you're not going to hear from approach again, until you're>lined up and 7 miles out. then you are switched to tower>>if you ask for an iap approach, and then request vectors,>you're reverting to the first scenario. you're not going to>get a vector to final>>without an ils, you can still manage the first scenerario, as>i described.>>take the vector to intercept, watch the rc display, when the>bearing to the airport is near the runway heading, turn to the>runway heading.>>i mistakenly said earlier that when you received the>localizer, true up your course.>>in your case, you're going to have to wait until you have the>runway in sight to true up your heading.>>if you can't see the runway, you're probably going to need>some sort of precision approach procedure. ils/vor/ndb(?) to>get on the ground.>>rc vectors are not vectors to final. they are vectors to>intercept.>>does that help? or have i muddied the waters even more?>>jdYes that does help.Basically, I have to gen up a little on real world procedures - having never flown for real I haven't a clue.I read the manual in more detail last night and realised that much of what I need is in there....!However, I am left with one question....the default ATC will always give you directions to the airport which may well be useful - how do I get RC to do this or would you regard this as part of VFR flight and hence we will have to await its implementation ?t means, but what are the actual letters referring to ?Also, what exactly does "IAP" stand for ? -I know what iCheers

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Guest GabeThePilot

>Point of real world procedure:>>You can not file an IFR plan if you are not IFR certified and>the aircraft is not IFR certified which includes required>avionics maintenance schedules and a list of minimum avionics>equipment including backup of some kind. This also includes>backup power.>>Some airports have PAR precision approach radar and only some>controllers are current in the procedure. For military>airports it is routine. For civilian airports it is the>exception.>>RC does not do PAR approaches with horizontal and vertical>guidance.>>If you are under VFR and not IFR certified you would be>expected to have an alternate in mind forecasted to be in VFR>conditions with extra and allowed time to get to from your>original destination. You could also U-Turn and proceed to an>alternate in the clear. That is one of the first things a VFR>pilot is tought: Do a 180 backtracking your VFR path and land>at an airport in the clear.>>ATC's responsibility if a localizer is present is to vector>you to an interecept. In some cases there is no full approach>radar in which case you would be vectored to line up with an>IAF after which you will be told to do your own navigation to>complete the approach. You still would need functioning IFR>capable equipment.Thanks Ron....I guess I was expecting VFR procedures when I know full well that RC only concerns itself with IFR.One thing that is clear is that I need to do some studying of ATC procedures - I can't really just jump in and expect to know whats going on !Fair enough - at least I know that now.Thanks for your help guys - I'm off to the library...well the virtual one called "Google"....!Cheers

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have you flown any of the tutorials? they also may help you to get up to speedi believe the rc display will give you the bearing and distance to the airportyou can also hit ctrl-alt-p, and bring up the .pln loaded in RC, which should show the distance and bearing to checkpoints that are left in the .plniap - instrument approach plate. can be found for most airports at myairplane.comjd

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try the rc manual, and the rc tutorials first. then googlejd

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Guest GabeThePilot

I think I'm going find a decent ATC simulator and learn it from "the other direction".May be a good idea...as my lack of understanding ATC is ruining my simming.It's a massive area - I realise that - so using a ATC sim may be just the ticket. It should also have a whole bunch of teaching aids and theoretical stuff bundled with it.You watch, I'll be a flamin expert by christmas !!!Besides, I'm looking to join a VA and thinking about VATSIM in the longer term - so I need to suss out this stuff....I just hate reading manuals ! But, it has to be done. Hey, I may enjoy pushing tin....!

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For GA training manuals:http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...lying_handbook/For large airport procedures:http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...dures_handbook/These are free .pdf downloads in sections.They are also about $13 each at amazon.There are tutorials and other items in the RC manual.Be aware that ATC side internal terminology is often different and just might, in my opinion, confuse the issue. Learn the aircraft side first, then the ATC side.

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i think if you read the tutorials section of the manual, and fly the tutorials, you'll be an expert by memorial dayjd

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Guest GabeThePilot

>i think if you read the tutorials section of the manual, and>fly the tutorials, you'll be an expert by memorial day>>jdRight, I'll hold you to that !When TF is Memorial Day ?....

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Guest GabeThePilot

>For GA training manuals:>>http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...lying_handbook/>>For large airport procedures:>>http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...dures_handbook/>>These are free .pdf downloads in sections.>>They are also about $13 each at amazon.>>There are tutorials and other items in the RC manual.>>Be aware that ATC side internal terminology is often different>and just might, in my opinion, confuse the issue. Learn the>aircraft side first, then the ATC side.>>>Ooohh....freebies ! Nice !ThnxAnd for anyone else interested:http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air...ons/ATpubs/AIM/(Looks very detailed about ATC procedures both IFR and VFR)Ouch...300 pages each....I hate reading !For those in the UK, these are also available in our Amazon at around

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Guest GabeThePilot

One final question JD....I assume that RC is based on American procedures, regardless of where one is flying in the world ?

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Some terminologies and procedures change when flying outside of FAA jurisdiction. These follow for the most part ICAO rules. These are mostly in terminal areas and do not affect enroute.Pay particular attention to the manual regarding explanation of transition altitude and transition level and altimeter settings for standard and local pressure. In FAA land this is fixed at 18,000 feet. Elsewhere it varies.Also depending where you are altimeter may be expressed in feet or millibars.Last, don't use the B key in FS, It is hard coded for 18,000 feet transition altitude regardless of where you are and that can change for the area you are in.

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It is around May 30th and is in commemoration primarily of those military people who gave their lives in service to the US.

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