pilotresponse

Hi Bryan I'm having the same issue doesn't want to recognize my vref call and can't continue with the descent checklist, tried to train my voice software some more but didn't help? any thoughts?

I agree with 777 simmer, maybe the issue is that past 80kts when the FMA annunciates HOLD the throttles will reposition themselves to where you have set them, if it was full forward then you will see the thrust go right to the stops, as the AT servos are disconnected at this point and maybe unknowingly you are commanding full thrust all the time, even though you have set a DE-RATE or ASSUMED temp. Furthermore, you might want to try a lower flap setting, flap 5 should suffice for most take-offs and the climb angle is shallower. Also make use of the FPV or flight path vector during take-off it is very useful, especially if you are at light weights and high thrust settings. Use the FPV and anticipate your level off altitude, remember level off should commence at a rate of approx 100ft per 1000ft of vertical speed. If your climb rate is 2000ft/min you should start your level off at least 200ft before reaching your desired altitude. Since in normal ops the 777 is always flown with the A/T on, your A/T FMA should annunciate SPD when you are at your level off altitude.If you are in THR REF or THR mode the aircraft will keep accelerating. If you are in HOLD mode and your thrust lever is set full forward you will keep accelerating so check your settings and please try again. When you level off your vertical mode FMA should annunciate VNAV PATH, VNAV ALT or ALT. In real life the 200LR is also a real hand full taking off, our golden rule is to pitch towards 15 degrees nose up and then adjust our speed to maintain V2+15 to V2+25. A proper rotation rate will leave you at V2+15 to V2+25 every time! cheers, Karl

that's within reason, but I haven't noticed a tendency for the airplane in the sim to float, or the A/T to do strange things on landing, pretty much behaves as in real life to me. Enough said. enjoy K

Martin, I find it works pretty true to life, again I think that PMDG has done a great job considering this is a desktop simulation. In the real aircraft an autoland does eat up about 400 to 500 meters of runway, which is what I'd say it's doing in FSX, but can't really tell, it's close enough in my opinion. The A/T BEGINS to move to idle at 25ft RA and should ideally reach idle at the same time the wheels touch. So says the book. When the A/T is off (and for a reason which has never been explained to me, and which I disagree with and don't understand, at my airline we fly ALWAYS ALWAYS with the A/T engaged and are not allowed to disengage it, unless it is failed or malfunctioning.) thrust reduction should be timed just after initiating your flare, while holding a constant pitch with back pressure on the column making only small pitch changes to adjust your rate, and again idle should be reached as the wheels touch. I find that it's quite well simulated and I'm happy with it. Though you are right about the spool down, being a somewhat lethargic, as is spool up I find, but I'll let you know for sure in the next month as I fly the sim more often. regards, K

Eric just as a note in the real aircraft, at light weights, it is a handful to land and the flare must be more agressive as the CG is much farther forward and stab position is less affected by the elevator making it more difficult to fly the 777 on to the runway, which is what boeing want you to do. You should never hold the airplane off, as you do on light airplanes (risking tail strike or causing a porpoising bounce), if you have flared to early just hold the attitude you have and add power to arrest your descent rate. If you flare early and then lower the nose to correct you are risking putting an enormous lifting surface back into ground effect (the wing) and this will extend your landing distance considerably. Instead keep your attitude constant and use power if you have to arrest rate, the induced drag being produced by that big wing and flaps will simply fly airplane to the ground. (unless you really flared early in which case a go around is the only recommendation) Late Flares always lead to bounces, if it's a shallow bounce hold what you have and again arrest rate with power if necessary always mindful of how much pavement you still have ahead, if its a deep bounce a go around is the only answer! just remember though to follow through your selection of TOGA as the auto throttle may have not function as you would expect. When the 777 200LR is heavy she is very docile in landing and much less flare is required, by judging your flare point according to the FCTM, she seems to come down more gently, though now stopping distance is really an issue, so as I said you should never make a smooth landing a must, its desirable but as I said not necessary. As was said before in this forum, spoilers are key to stopping, reverse thrust adds little to stopping distance especially on dry runways, but can make a huge difference in the brake energy required to do so. One last thing, a damp or slightly wet runway are a pilot's favorite as smooth touchdowns are almost always generated, though I'm sure those of you excellent flight sim enthusiasts know why, something to do with friction and momentum I'm sure. For me and all other pros "greasers" are always a treat rather then an objective. cheers, K

When you fly the real aircraft flare height is a funtion of sink rate, not just a number. If you listen out for altitude auto call outs with a tailwind component, or an upsloping runway you will have a bad day. Incredibly enough when to flare in the 777 is much like the same seat of your pants gut feeling that I got when I flew a Cessna 172 around, it simply feels right. The way to land a 777 is just as boeing recommends in the FTCM, but we don't forget the basics, which they do not mention because they expect you already come equipped to fly the aircraft with that knowledge. In my personal experience on the "200" variants the "20" callout helps you judge the point, in the "300's" 30 feet is better, but I never flare solely based on this. Smooth landings are always desirable, but not necessary. As was mentioned, you must look at the terrifying physics of how much inertia something weighing over 200 tons has. That is why a "firm" touchdown followed by rapidlly selecting reverser and making absolutely sure the spoilers are out is sometimes so important. Happy flying :-) K

Cowl, I'm sorry if you think that there is a contradiction between what I and 777simmer are saying. I don't see it as a contradiction, but more a difference of opinion on how true to the "spirit" of the boeing FBW system the PMDG777 simulates. I have done the experiments 777simmer has done in the sim, and he is correct about how the simulation behaves, in that there is almost an auto trimming effect if you continue to apply column pressure as the plane accelerates or decclerates to the desired speed. which is strange because the trim position indicator does not move. I have noticed also that even when the trim button is pressed the trim indicator barely moves and sometimes doesn't move at all. What I am saying is that even though this is NOT TRUE to the aircraft, this is the way FBW is modelled in the FSX simulation platform. To me this makes this difference not so important so far as I would think it very hard to replicate on this scale the control forces you need to exert in real life on the aircraft, and how a true trim system behaves. Yesterday on a real flight on a 777-300ER I hand flew a departure from an airport in Europe accelarating from flap up speed to 250kts while in the climb, the force I needed to keep the control column down was quite strong, I would compare it to having the CH column pushed in at least 3/4 of travel (and that's understating it). I did this until I grew tired of pushing and and decided to trim. only then did the force needed subside, and I continued to climb to an altitude below 10000ft, at which point I selected the A/P. So as far as I see things, the essence of the way the system should work is simulated, and my tests and yours with the sim prove this, however all of us as flight sim fans should appreciate that the way FSX simulates hand flying, especially of large commercial aircraft, is limited. I'm not saying its poor, just limited. I hope 777simmer agrees, and maybe I was over zealous in expressing my opinion and apologize to him if that was the case, as obviously the modelling is not true to life, even if it is true to the essense that of the aircraft system. I apologize to you also if it caused you confusion. kind regards, K

Last response 777 simmer because your tone is getting increasingly less polite for some reason. I've done " your experiment" and yes the aircraft stays pretty much in trim, the reason which I explained in my last response. It is meant to stay in trim because you are applying a force on the yoke, the FBW is sending a signal to the flight control surfaces that you wish to maintain this attitude and they are responding to minimize forces required to do so, when you reach the new speed you release the yoke, and magically the aircraft is in trim, correct? Yes it is, and no further trimming required because at that moment you are not changing speed, or making an input of the control column. If you were to make a speed change WITHOUT an input to the yoke the aircraft will not trim, understood? That is how the system functions in the real aircraft period. How this proves to you that the FBW is not simulated properly comes from your misunderstanding of how the system functions, I will not post another reply to you, and sorry you're dissapointed with PMDG's simulation of this I AM NOT and think they have modelled th FBW very well considering this a product for FSX.

777simmer and other friends, my experience is exactly as the FCTM says, that the FBW system "minimizes the airplane pitch response to thrust changes, configuration changes" I think minimizes is the key word here, it's not intended to take all the response out, but to minimize. Here is the confusion you may have. Thrust changes do not mean speed changes. As in the real airplane when you add or decrease thrust at a constant speed, you must apply control column pressure to maintain attitude, but you will notice minimal change in trim. For example, If you apply pressure on the control column to hold a level attitude, as you add and take away thrust the FBW system will help you in maintaining a constant attitude as advertised and minimizes pitch changes, minimizing change in trim. Once you reach a new target speed you are no longer adding thrust or removing it, that is why your attitude remains constant and the FBW helped you achieve this with minimum pitch change as you held the yoke at constant pressure. Now you are at your new speed, and are NOT changing speed, so this is not an out of trim condition for the FBW. You are instead flying a constant speed (albeit a new one) and the FBW worked as advertised by helping you as you applied pressure on the column to get there with a minimum pitch response, and you are in trim. Now, on the other hand if you let go of the control column in level flight and accelerate the aircraft, thereby changing thrust and speed the FBW will try to MINIMIZE the impact of the trust change which would otherwise cause a large pitch up moment. You are not helping now so there is only so much it can do, and it will not assist in trimming the A/C AS IT CHANGES SPEED, thereby you will notice the aircraft pitch up and stay up as the aircraft losses trim. A telling statement in the FCTM reveals why the system is designed this way, it states "The pilot still needs to trim for speed changes. Column forces increase when out of trim to provide the conventional speed error cue." The dumbed down FBW is a safety feature which helps pilots be aware they are speeding up or slowing down by feel even if they haven't noticed it by sight! How cool is that, Cheers, K

To easily sum up how to show the compacted instrument display on the upper EICAS just do this: set your right inboard dspl selector to from MFD to EICAS, then press the ENG button on the DSP then turn the selector to MFD and presto...compacted secondary engine display on your upper EICAS!

777 simmer I tried your test and got a completely different result, with the trim behaving just as it does in the 200 LR's I fly. AP off with AT engaged and speed changes with out of trim conditions resulting. Maybe a problem with your joystick setup? kind regards, K Cowl the FBW system on the 777 does not trim for speed changes only for configuration changes. This was an intentional design concieved to give the pilot a feedback response from the aircraft to changing the flight path of the aircraft. Configuration changes are not intended to change flight path and therefore are trimmed out automatically by the FBW system. The design is true to the real airplane I can assure you. regards, K

Hi I would like to take time to address this forum, I have several thousand hours on the 767, 757 and 777...real aircraft, I am a real world current captain on the aircraft now. I have had the PMDG 777 installed now for the last few days test flying it in many different configurations, weights, and speeds flying manually to investigate the trim issues noted on this thread. I am not a beta tester, or a developer, just another flight sim fan. I have a well aged CH flight sim yoke, throtttles, and pedals, and have my FSX running with realism sliders set to full and no additional FSUIPC intervention, though obviously it is installed. I am happy with the way the aircraft handles in general, and to me seems quite true to the real airplane. In fact the real aircraft I would say is even more sensitive to trim and yoke inputs, such as those seen on days where I have done approaches in mild orographic turbulence, or taken off in the same conditions. The feeling of the weight of the aircraft is very well simulated. The only thing i find not so well simulated is the delayed response of the the thrust which I believe is slower then the real thing. I have flown the 200 LR, and all varients of the 777 now for over 6 years and this has been my experience. I want to thank the PMDG team for such a remarkable product. I loved the PMDG 737 (even though I have no time on the real aircraft), and must say the LEVEL D 767 really set the bar for all others, but really the PMDG team have lived up to my expectations on this product, and I hope that says something. Sure their are a few small things that are a bit off, but generally speaking at least with my simple set up, the aircraft behaves much the same way the real one does, albeit a litte lazier in pitch and thrust control. Amazing when you think of it really, that you can sit at home and even some what reproduce the feeling of flying this incredible machine. I am surprised no one has mentioned the incredible ECL, as for me in real life, this is the most revolutionary part of this aircraft. Hope you all enjoy it and feel very happy to be part of such an interesting community of fellow flight simmers! Cheers, K

It's modelled accurately as well, works just as in the real airplane!