wipeout01

Hey sorry buddies, I was a bit busy these days so I was away from the forum. I'm back again Thansk a lot for the replies. SPECIALLY TO YOU ALPHA FLOOR, AS ALWAYS AMAZING REPLY WITH A LOT OF GREAT INFORMATION. Buddy you are the best. Thank you

Hi buddy, thanks for your reply. So basically you recommend me to disconnect the VNAV button as soon I reach the first segment, the IAF. Then, I continue descending according what is told in the charts... and I apply my descend rate using V/S as always... you recommend me this even for Airbuses and Boeings? right? always? And of course, if I do this with the VS, I must follow the right descend rate indicated in the chart, and the right speed... as always right? However... I suspect that if I don't do this... due the aircraft have different altitudes... for the IAF, IF, FAF and MAPT... I guess it would descend automatically the aircraft to the different altitudes... even if I don't follow your advice and allow the aircraft to do that iself, right? Personally I prefer the way you recommend, but I wanted to be sure of this, to understand properly the FMC working. Also... there is a point that I don't see in the Jeppesen convention... Have you seen the point I have numbered as... 3...? (NTSC) what would be that? It repeat also 1900 feet... As you can see in the altitude profile... MJV is the IAF - 3000 feet. Then we have the IF 1900 feet... in the fmc is represented as MJV too... point 2... Then we have point 3... (NTSC) also 1900 feet, as the IF ... What would be (NTSC) ? Any idea?

I am lucky having you here buddy. Really Waiting your amazing reply !!!

Hi, I'll be trying a VOR/DME approach to Mallorca, Runway 06L... and I have a doubt. I understand how a VOR/DME approach must be taken. You arrive the last segment of your approach... called FAF - Final Approach Fix. In that point, you start a descent rate, which would vary according the recommended landing speed for your aircraft. Basically you have a table in your IAC - Chart, in which you see the descend rate in feet per minute according the a range of speeds. For example, let's imagine my aircraft has a recommended landing speed of 100 knots. When I arriva the last segment from my approach, FAF, I must start to descend the aircraft in a certain range of feet per minute, indicated in a table provided in the IAC chart. See the table here: In this case... if my recommended landing speed is 100 knots, when I arrive the FAF I would have to start to descend my aircraft with a Rate of Descend ROD of 573 feet per minute. You can see this indicated in the table. When you arrive the FAF (you know that because the FAF is indicated in the IAC chart and it is indicated at a distance from the VOR in nautical miles), then, when you arrive the FAF you start to descend the aircraft programming a descend rate in the autopilot with the VS button. This is the way you fly a VOR/DME approach in light aircrafts, like Bonanzas, Cessnas and so on... However, what happen when we try a VOR/DME approach using a FMC? Okay, the first thing I want to post is the table that Kabronicus (amazing guy from this forum) provided me. Extremely useful, telling all the waypoints names and its meaning. I have highlighted some relevant information in that table. Okay, so we are doing a VOR/DME approach to Mallorca, Runway 06L... let's see what the FMC says. Okay, two important things for a VOR/DME approach: I have VNAV selected in my autopilot, okay? so my aircraft is following the altitudes indicated in my flight plan. Sadly, I don't have autothrottle in this aircraft... so I cannot program speeds... I have to control it using what God gave me. "The Hand", basic, but effective The first segment of my approach, IAF, it's called MJV okay? FMC LEGS I have numbered the information in the LEGS page from the FMC. I will explain what numbers from 4 to 6 means exactly, according the Jeppesen table for names and conventions. N. FMS /FMC SYMBOL RUNWAY MEANING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. CD06L CD 06L CD = Final Approach Course Fix (FACF) 5. FD06L FD 06L FD = Final Approach Fix 6. MD06L MD 06L MD = MAPT - Miss Approach Point So we know what means CD, FD, and MD... Okay... So observe we arrive to the Final Approach Point - FAF - (number 4) FD06L and we have an altitude of 1400 feet. At that point we should start the descend rate, according the table provided in our IAC chart. However we are flying with the FMC, and we have the altitudes expressed automatically... so when I arrive the FAF I am to the right altitude 1400 feet. What do we have next? Next we have... MD06L... and what is that? That is the MAPT Miss Approach Point. Then, we have MD06L, the Miss Approach Point to an altitude of 420 feet. What that means? That means the aircraft arrive to the FAF to the right altitude, 1400 feet... The aircraft continue navigating... it goes on... and arrive the MAPT to 420 feet. :unknw: So I think I am not descending the aircraft. It is clear... the aircraft is descending itself... I have my VNAV activated... So my doubt is who control the Rate of Descend for my VOR/DME approach? I am in control ? or the aircraft is in control ? If the aircraft is controlling this? would this work fine? I ask because the descend rate is linked to the speed... so what happen if I do not use the recommended landing speed? would the descend works? I guess yes... because.... this is not like VS... in which you have to apply a descend rate according your speed. I guess the FMC have this simplified... in the sense that when you arrive the FAF you must stay to a certain altitude. FULL STOP. Then... you continue navigating (whatever your speed be) and when you arrive the MAPT you must stay to a certain altitude. FULL STOP. So the aircraft will take control of the vertical speed (VS) in at every moment, according the speed. Summarizing, with the FMC... even if you don't apply the right speed to land, and even if you don't have autothrottle... you won't have any problem landing, because VNAV take total control of your altitudes every time. Is this right? I'd like to read your thoughts about this please, because I am a bit confused. Cheers By the way, I have the MAP or MAPT (Miss approach point) to a different altitude of what is indicated in the real chart???? I have in the FMC 420 feet and in the chart I have 490 feet??? See it yourself...

Hi Ariline2Sim I did not see the feature for SID and STARS in the website you told me, I'll try to take a look to the video relaxed. It's sad the Jeppesen service don't allow people to find waypoints, I really don't know why I can find everything except waypoints and airways, even if the service was developed to show charts, have sense people consulting charts want to find points in them... so a search box would be really welcome. Anyway, after 2 hours fighting with the charts I did also other route, so I am sharing it here: EDDL ----> LEIB ---------------- SID --------------------------- RUNWAY 05R DEPARTURE: COLA3Z --------------------------- ENROUTE --------------------------- VOR/DME COL VIA T150 ROLIS VIA Z658 IDOVI VIA T894 AGBUL VIA T890 BITBU VIA Y180 VOR/DME MMD VIA MI63 VOR/DME CTL VIA B37 VOR/DME TRO VIA B373 VOR/DME MOU VIA A3 VOR/DME MTL VIA A6 VOR/DME MTG VIA G7 CRETA VIA A34 VOR/DME ALT VIA B46 RUXET --------------------------- STAR --------------------------- ARRIVAL: RUXET1V --------------------------- IAC --------------------------- APPROACH (IAC): ILS 06 APPROACH (IAC): TRANSITION TILNO ---------------------------- Finally, is what you said. Crews are not involved in this process, there are departments behind, developing routes which take a lot of time, effort and experience. That and also the legal part. So I think that even if I don't develop the most efficient flight plan, for the "sim world" would be acceptable I guess !!! Cheers for everyone

Hi Airline2Sim, are you Ryanair pilot? I have a friend flying in Ryanair, his base is at Budapest I was able to create a route from Dusseldorft to Ibiza, but I had to review every single airway, waypoint, and finally to find clearly the SID final waypoint I had to clear everything, terrain, boundaries, etc. etc. to have a clear view of the map. I'm wondering in commercial airlines who are the people behind the flight plans... and how they handle to create an efficient flight plan, looking the best airways to follow... because that is other problem... finding the most efficient route. You told me about Simbrief. Is this free? There is a videotutorial of 42 mins !!! so I'll watch it today... But yes, I need what you said, a flight planner, but serious one, with SIDs, Enroute, STAR, IAC. So Simbrief don't suggest me a SID or a STAR, it only create the route... and then I would have to select the SID, STAR and IAC from Jeppesen? And would it tell me the airways to fly? Or just the waypoints to fly direct to? I think I feel more control following the direction of the airways... because if I fly everything in DIRECT TO, I can break all aviation regulations flying everywhere in the wrong places...

The problem is that exactly, that I cannot create my route. I know how to chose my SID. I select my SID, and I arrive to the final waypoint in my SID. Okay, now I need to find that waypoint in the Enroute. Why? Because I need to know where is that waypoint in the Enroute, to know the airway it is, to know if it is an intersection and to know other nearby airways, and the following waypoints to final waypoint of my SID. That is the reason I need to know how to find a waypoint in the Enroute. In that way, I can see my options, and start to create my route. So the question still opened... how do I find a waypoint in the Jeppesen iCharts Enroute?

Hi As you may know iCharts is a professional service from Jeppesen in which pilots can consult everything to create a flight plan. You can consult airport charts, SID, STARS, Approach Charts and also the Enroute. By the way, the full PDF manual for this service is here: https://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/support/aviation/E-link-User-Guide.pdf The official page for the product is here: http://ww1.jeppesen.com/industry-solutions/aviation/commercial/e-link-online.jsp Well my problem with this service is I cannot search waypoint... so I am bit "spatially disoriented". I'll explain this... Let's imagine I am departing from a certain airport, let's say Dusseldorf... EDDL... okay... What I do is to type the ICAO code of the airport and taking a look to the enroute to see where are the runways, and then select the configuration, north, south, east, west, that better fit with my route. So if I am going down, to the south, I would select the runway that points down, to the south... Let's imagine this runway is 05R Okay. Now I know I have to depart from the 05R because it is going to the south, and the country I am going to is in the south. Fine... So let's select a SID. I take a look to several SID charts for that runway and let's imagine I select a SID, and I go to a certain waypoint... Let's imagine this waypoint is JOE1S (name invented non real). Okay. I know the runway I must depart... I have the SID I like, and I know also the departure I need from that SID... JOE1S That departure go to the waypoint JOEDW (let's imagine, name also invented, non real) Fine. I know how to depart. Now what I want is to find the waypoint JOEDW in the enroute... to take a look to the enroute map and see the airways to create my route... How do I find a waypoint in the enroute? I don't know ! I don't see iCharts have a search function? I need to see where is the waypoint to see if it is an intersection, or the airway it belongs to start to trace my route and select airways and waypoints... but I don't know how to find it? Any ideas ? Cheers

This forum is a jewel. The quality and quantity of information you find here, is amazing. Thanks a lot to everyone for this information really helpful. I want to remind what stephendoc said, to post in the navigraph forum you have to register and write in the Pre-Purchase forum, that can be found here: https://www.navigraph.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=54 Kabronicus and Alpha Floor, fantastic information. Thanks a lot. So I guess those are CNF codes, which first state the waypoint and second the procedure. F (Final Approach Fix) + I (ILS) Crystal clear ! Just to put clear, what is the runway threshold... we can see it in this picture. Regarding the approach segments... I want to clarify that at least, in the Spanish charts provided from AENA they differentiate very well in the segments for a VOR/DME approach and an ILS approach. In the case of a VOR/DME approach, the segments are three: IAF - Initial Approach Fix (1st segment) IF - Intermediate Fix (2nd segment) FAF - Final Approach Fix (3rd and last segment) In the case of an ILS approach, the segments are three: IAF - Initial Approach Fix (1st segment) IF - Intermediate Fix (2nd segment) FAP - Final Approach Point (3rd and last segment) I really don't know if outside Spain other sources catalog the information in the same fashion for the approach segments, but at least, in Spain is this way.

I've just registered the Navigraph forum 5 hours ago I think... they sent me a verification code, activated my account, but don't allow me to post anything in the forum. It says... In order to post in this part of the forum you need to 1) be a registered Navigraph User, 2) have purchased a product or service relating to this particular part of the forum. I.e. you need to purchase FMS Data in order to gain access to the FMS Data forum. N.B. If you have just registered or purchased our product(s), please wait a few mintues until your permission is updated. 5 hours I've been waiting and nothing...

I did not find them, when I selected the right approach, the FMC inserted them automatically. I've selected as STAR the MATE1S, then I selected the approach to the runway 07R ILS... asked me what transition, and selected VLA, which is the closest transition to my route. Then, the FMC inserted all the waypoints... and also these two mysterious waypoints. FI07R and RW07R ??? Any idea about what could be happening here?

Note for the forum moderator: This post was accidentally duplicated by me, due an internet failure in my connection. I am very sorry for this. This is the valid post, please, do not delete it. Just delete the other duplicated post. You can find it here: http://www.avsim.com/topic/486565-anyone-experienced-with-the-fmc-help-with-strange-waypoints/ Hi, This is very strange, because I am programming my FMC to fly from Seville, LEZL to Barcelona, LEBL... I've selected as arrival the MATE1S arrival... in the STAR chart, and as approximation I am going to land in the Runway 07R with ILS. So I've selected that approach, 07R with ILS and as TRANSITION I've selected VLA. When you are going to land in an ILS landing or a VOR/DME landing you have an approach divided in three segments. 1st. IAF - Initial Approach Fix. 2nd. IF - Intermediate Fix. 3rd - FAP (for ILS) or FAF (for VOR/DME landing). It stands for Final Approach Point or Final Approach Fix. It is the last segment of the approach. So I am going to land in the runway 07R and I've selected the most convinient approach for me, which is the transition VLA. There are several ways in which you can enter the runway, so you can access the runway 07R from several ways, coming from the east, west, north, south... so the approximation to that runway have several IAFs. I've selected the VLA transition, that is... the IAF that is closer to my actual route. You can see this in this chart, perfectly painted, so you won't have any doubt at all... Click here to see the chart: https://carenado.zendesk.com/attachments/token/kxEtvTc69WQHLzV2UHWU4wdmK/?name=4+IAC-chart.jpg Okay... so I did the FMC programming... and everything is fine... I see the transition perfectly shown... it show also the Intermediate Fix (IF), whose name is PERUK... BUT!!! I see two misterious waypoints? are waypoints? not listed in any chart... and I don't know what is this. Are called... FI07R RW07R What is this???? See it for yourself... If you want to take a look to the video in which I am programming the FMC, here it is Are just 7 minutes. https://youtu.be/3r227wbmkRg I've talked to the aircraft maker, in this case, Carenado, and they replied me back they don't know what is FI07R and RW07R because that data is provided by Navigraph? Do you have any idea of what is FI07R and RW07R? What is clear is that it is something related to runways... because I am going to land in the 07R runway... and I see 07R... but... FI? RW? FI07R? RW07R? What is this? Any idea?

I did a click in your name, Jaime Beneyto... and saw your linkedin So... Jerez de la Frontera, Right? Guess where I am ? Huelva hahaha this world is very very very little

Hi everyone and thanks a lot for the replies. Hi Alpha Floor Crystal clear To summarize the thread I quote the explanations given which are extremely clear to understand. WAYPOINTS Alpha Floor: Examples of waypoints that ARE NOT an intersection of two airways: ROLDO, KASTA, AVILA, KAMPO, DOLES Exactly. These waypoints (waypoints are always represented by a white triangle or black triangle) ARE NOT intersections... because they are in an airway but do not connect with other airways. In other words... these triangles (waypoints) are not connected by several lines (airways). INTERSECTIONS Alpha Floor: Examples of waypoints that ARE an intersection of two or more airways: MELON, ZORBA, DIPOL, KALMA, RIDAV ...if 2 lines cross the waypoint, said waypoint belongs to both airways. Yes. These waypoints are intersections because they are connected by several lines (airways), so they intersect, with several lines, airways. We can see that, MELON, for example, is connected by several airways, so this is an intersection. UNNAMED INTERSECTIONS DaveCT2003 I believe that's a terminal fix for a runway approach for LEZL. It appears to be used like an amay Arrival Gate. JRBarret The waypoints like JRZ27 are part of specific approach or departure procedures for specific airports. They may or may not appear on an enroute chart. To see them "in context", you would need to look at the approach or departure charts for the airport in question. When waypoints are not shown in an ENROUTE charts and they are called unnamed intersections, is because they are used for other purposes different than the navigation in an Enroute chart, for example, to be used during an departure / arrival or other procedures. WAYPOINTS OR INTERSECTIONS NOT BELONGING TO AN AIRWAY Alpha Floor ROLDO for instance belongs to UZ409 but NOT to UL185. When a waypoint or intersection do not belong to an airway... it is circled by the line (airway) and surround it... We see that ROLDO is surrounded by the airway (line) UL185. However, it is crossed by the line UZ409... so it is clear that if we are flying following the airway UZ409 we will find ROLDO, however if we fly the airway UL185 we will not find ROLDO, although we do not have physical space in the Enroute to show every waypoint far away from the points that do not belong to their relative airways. In these cases, we see how the waypoints or intersections that do not belong to an airway are surrounded by that airway. We see that ROLDO is surrounded by the airway (line) UL185. However, it is crossed by the line UZ409... so it is clear that if we are flying following the airway UZ409 we will find ROLDO, however if we fly the airway UL185 we will not find ROLDO, although we do not have physical space in the Enroute to show every waypoint far away from the points that do not belong to their relative airways. In these cases, we see how the waypoints or intersections that do not belong to an airway are surrounded by that airway. WHITE WAYPOINTS / BLACK WAYPOINTS Compulsory vs. Non Compulsory Notification. When to contact the ATC? JRBarret Compulsory vs. non-compulsory reporting points are only used in the rare case that ATC does not have radar contact with an aircraft - ordinarily, an aircraft in flight will be continuously tracked by ATC radar, so pilots do not have to report passing specific waypoints. Great explanation. I did not know that THANKS A LOT TO EVERYONE. You are the best.

Wow thank you for everyone. Crystal clear !!! Jim Barret, more clear impossible, great explanation, thank you. However... I still don't understand when a point is an intersection? I mean... every waypoint is an intersection? or perhaps only those waypoints that connect with several airways? I have a little mess here, because Jeppesen show intersections (I think like a star, I mean a real physical star (I don't mean the chart), draw as a star I mean, not a triangle)... with Enroutes in Spain I only see always triangles, and some of them connect with several airways. So that is my doubt... when do we have an intersection? how can we see if we have an intersection or not? Cheers

Hi, I have a confussion about this. As far as I know an airway is a straight line that connect several waypoints, which has names of five letters. The waypoints are represented as white or black triangles. When it is white, you won't have to contact the ATC, hence it is a noncompulsory notification waypoint... when it is black, you'll have to contact the ATC, compulsory notification waypoint. However, the waypoints normally has names easy to spell TOLVO, ALCAR, VICAR... ...but there are some waypoints, called unnamed waypoints... not shown in some ENROUTES coming from the local aeronautical authorities of several countries. For example, in Spain, AENA, our local authorities providing charts to the pilots, don't show these unnamed waypoints... I mean waypoints with strange names as... JRZ27... D005F... these waypoints are called unnamed waypoints... and I don't know what function they perform? specially because some of them are outside the airways...? they are in the middle of the field and are not connected by any airway whatsoever... ? so what function perform these unnamed waypoints? And also I don't know when a waypoint is an interesection? Perhaps is when a triangle (waypoint) be black or white, connect with several airways? in that case is an intersection? I really would appreciate if someone could clarify me these basic concepts, because I would understand much better the charts. Cheers

Hi NickATC amazing reply buddy !!! Thanks to your reply I'm more relaxed right now flying archs and removed from my mind certain "complex" I had about the quality of the path in strong wind conditions It's a real pleasure having people so nice as you here. !!! Cheers

Hi Jim and Richard I know that PDF you told me but it is not enough. I've been reading it... but there are important doubts not covered there. First thing to state at this point, it is not the Carenado FMS, it is the Collins FMS (Collins Proline 21 FMS). Seems to be Carenado is mounting this FMS and have differences with other FMS. Talking about the Collins FMS... For example, I know what an airway is and what a waypoint is. I know I can enter the first waypoint, then the VIA (airway in which is that waypoint) and the final waypoint in that particular airway and the FMS will calculate everything, all the waypoints in the middle will be listed in the flight plans (LEGS section). Fine. But in that manual, as afar as I know there are important things not covered. For example, may I tell the FMS to fly a VOR and get me out from the VOR following a particular radial or airway? I suspect you don't need that because you only enter waypoints... and airways... and it will follow the paths, however I don't know this. The manual says... if the waypoint is an intersection you may use that waypoint to fly another route... Well, I only know two different kind of waypoints... white triangles and black triangles... but don't understand very well what does it mean "if the waypoint is an intersection"... does it mean a triangle that is connecting several airways? What about the IAC charts in the arrivals? The FMS allows to you select SIDs and STARS, but what happens with the IAC ? I don't proceed to an approach with a STAR, it is only a previous chart to the real approach procedure that is listed in the IAC chart. So the FMS do also the IAC at arrivals? What function plays fly DIRECT ? direct to a coordinate ? and when is necessary to fly DIRECT ? As far as I know those topics are not covered in the FMS manual, are just a few pages. I did my first steps the other day and was able to introduce some airways and select some departures, was exciting but... I still need to know that basic info.

Hi NickATC thanks for you amazing reply. I see you are a trafic controller, so you are the best person to say what is right and what is not. Okay. Everything is crystal clear, however, I would like to know your opinion about an arch maintained in very special conditions. Strong winds of 40 knots. In this case so special, wind is so strong that not always is possible to follow a regular path, you need to add degrees or reduce degrees in the heading constantly. The result is a squiggly arch. I'd say even a very squiggly arch. It is inside the legal limits, but it is squiggly. Would it be okay for you? As for the rest of wind speeds, this is the quality of path I maintain doing the archs. WIND CALM. PERFECT NORMAL WINDS. UP TO 20 KNOTS. ELLIPTICAL ARCHS. This elliptical arch, reminds me a lot to the arch you showed me in the radar screen

Nothing?

Hi As you may know I'm new programming the CDU (which is the FMS / FMC) Flight Management Syster or Flight Management Computer from this aircraft, and I would like to see a step by step tutorial covering this. Would be cool Carenado deliver the products with a step by step tutorial. Can you recommend me please some videotutorials for this? Cheers

First, sorry for the extension of my reply. However I want to explain step by step how I am flying archs and the problems I am facing. I was practicing archs 20 days more or less. Yes, I've corrected the anticipation problem. My fault, I am sorry. :wink: Hi vgbaron I am more relaxed now, after reading this, I was kinda obsessed with a perfection flying archs. I was trying to fly archs with winds so strong as 45 MPH (72 KM/H) and is impossible with winds so strong flying a perfect arch. I am explaining anyway in this post how I am flying the archs. I am able now to maintain archs with wind calm, absolutely perfect with a beautiful path, however when we have wind... I can hold the arch but it is not so beautiful. Reading you gives me more confidance. Hi NickATC Lucky we have you in the forum NickATC, willing to help everyone with so much knowledge. First my apologies for my delayed reply. I was away almost 20 days, I am back now reading everything. However I was not loosing time, I was practicing the archs all the time. I am now able to fly archs with a beautiful path, hower with wind calm. When I start to have 17 knots of wind... I am able to fly the arch, but I cannot maintain a path extremely beautiful. When I mean extremely beautiful, I mean a path done with a compass. Perfect and exact. I am able to do that with wind calm, but know when I have 17 knots of wind. With wind I fly, let's say eliptical archs. They are archs, they are inside the legal limits, but they are not 100% perfect. THE ERROR OF THE ANTICIPATION. I've corrected that. Yes. SInce the video I posted I corrected this. Yes, absolutely. The chart don't tell you, you must turn to enter in the arch at 5.0 nm from the VOR/DME. The chart tells you, in that moment is when you can start to turn, but according the anticipation you must calculate. And for that we need a formula: 0.5% GS (that is the zero point five percent of the Ground Speed). So, if I have to maintain an arch of 7.0 nm... the first thing I must do is having a constant speed. Then, I must calculate the anticipation to the arch. EXAMPLE ABOUT HOW TO ANTICIPATE AN ARCH: Let's say we will fly with 120 knots. It is important trying to hold this speed. We apply the formula to our speed, the 0.5 % of the speed we are flying to calculate the anticipation to the arch. Then 120 knots x 0.5 / 100 = 0.6 nautical miles of anticipation to the arch, to this speed, 120 knots. If the arch I have to follow is 7.0 nm... and I need to anticipate 0.6 nautical miles to it, we deduce that quantity to the arch. 7.0 nm - 0.6 nm = 6.4 nm I must start my turn to 6.4 nm because I am flying to 120 knots. IN A PRACTICAL WAY: There are sometimes that you will enter at 6.3 and it works perfectly the same, because your fingers are not always so smart to do this in the right moment like a computer... but it works well too. I've been flying archs almost one month... so I explain right now how I was flying them. Let's forget for the moment the departure from the arch, ok? Most important thing right now, to hold the arc. Lucky people in the US have a permisive FAA that allow 1 nm of legal limit on each side of the arch. Unlucky people in Spain have more restrictive authorities that only allow 0.5 nm on each side of the arch. So I assume as correct only 0.5 nm on each side of the arch, ok? Because I will be flying in my area. Yes, NickATC as you said the key is being perpendicular to the path, to hold the arch. That is your heading must add a 90º degrees difference to your entrance radial. However... sometimes this is not easy to achive... there is wind... you are distracted, you are taking a look to other instruments... Anyway, the first enemy here is the wind... With wind I am not always able to be perpendicular to the arch, so I am not always able to have a perfect path with a difference of 90º between the radial and the aircraft's heading. HOW I AM FLYING VOR/DME ARCHS WITHOUT RMI (ONLY HSI): As a rule: When DME show us more nautical miles than the arch, for example, we must follow an arch of 7.0 nm and our DME is showing us 7.2 nm (we are departing from the arch) in that case, to correct, I use more OBS and more HDG. For example: I set my OBS to 10 and my HDG to 10 or my OBS to 10 and my HDG to 15. When DME show us less nautical miles than the arch, for example, we must follow an arch of 7.0 nm and our DME is showing us 6.8 nm (we are nearing to the arch) in that case, to correct, I use less OBS and less HDG. For example: I set my OBS to 5 and my HDG to 5 or my OBS to 5 and my HDG to 3. I always divide the arch in segments of 5 or 10, so I always use 5 or 10 for the OBS. In the case of HDG, I can change that quantity for other values as 1... 3... 5... 10... 15... or even 20 as much. As for my experience. Kinds of archs we can fly, according the quality of their paths. Perfect arch with perfect path. Is more easy to get achieved with wind calm. When the OBS is the same as the HDG adding degrees (if we have an arch to the right side, clockwise) or When the OBS is the same as the HDG deducing degrees (if the arch is to the left side, anticlockwise)... In this case, the path is perfect. You will achieve a beautiful perfect circular arch. So... we need always the OBS and the HDG in the same progression. That is 5 / 5 or 10 / 10 when we hold the arch... and if we maintain always this progression, the arch will have a beautiful circular path. Elliptical arch. Regular path, but not perfect. When the OBS and the HDG are not equal adding degrees (if our arch is to the right side, clockwise) or... When the OBS and the HDG are not equal deducing degrees (if our arch is the the left side, anticlockwise)... We will achive an elliptical arch, regular, but not perfect. For example: If OBS and HDG goes in different progression... OBS 5 / HDG 3... OBS 10 / HDG 15... OBS 5 / HDG 1... OBS 10 / HDG 20... and we maintain different progression of the OBS and the HDG during the arch, we will get an elliptical arch, with regular path but not perfect. It will looks like an ellipse, but a perfect, circular arch. Squiggly arch. Usually I get this arch in strong wind conditions. 45 MP/H (72 KM/H). Those conditions are close to a strong tropical thunderstorm or close to a hurricane (Isidore Hurricane, 2002, showed winds of 45 MPH) The arch is always divied in segments of 5 or 10 radials with the OBS. The HDG will always add degrees or deduce degrees, to maintain the path of the arch. If our arch is to the left side, we will deduce degrees in the HDG to maintain the arch (anticlockwise) If our arch is to the right side, we will add degrees in the HDG to maintain the arch (clockwise). However, in strong wind conditions... we will have suddent gusts of wind that will push our aircraft toward or away the station (VOR). In fact, when we enter the arch, the wind will push as in a certain direction, when we be in the middle of the arch, the wind will push us in a different direction, and also, when we be close to end our arch... the wind will push us in a different direction. Because our heading is changing, the angle the wind is pushing us, change also. When the wind push us hard... is complicated to hold the arch. More complicated is in this case doing a nice arch and not a "potato" (sorry for the expression, I prefer to use plain words). What I am doing to maintain the arch in strong wind conditions is: Dividing the arch in 5 radials or 10 radials. Moving the HDG to the right side (add degrees) or to the left side (dedude degrees) to my heading. When you do this, for sure you will get an squiggly arch. Talking mathematically, if we have a clockwise arch, your HDG will have to add always degrees to your heading, to follow the progression of the arch. If you are painting an arch to the right side with your hand, it must move to the right side, adding degrees to draw a circular path. If something external affect you, be the wind hitting your hand or someone kicking your drawing table... then... your hand (aircraft) will have to correct this moving from left to right or right to left, to try to draw a circular path. When I am facing strong wind conditions, I move the HDG knob to the left side or right side, deducing degrees or adding degrees to my actual heading, because the only I have in mind is to hold the arch inside the legal limits. However... in this case, the path will be squiggly. I think I have a problem with that. My mind cannot assume I can present as perfect a squiggly arch... when weather conditions are so strong... that wind is pushing me in all directions. I would love to read your comments please. Cheers

Sorry for my delayed reply. I've been away almost 20 days, so I am coming back and reading the forum right now. I am flying archs right now... so I will try to reply everyone. I am expecting a directional input that allow me to present an arch so beautiful in its path... that can win a drawing contest. I imagine my airplane is a pencil, and I am expecting to win this drawing contest even if I have strong wind. Sorry I be so contundent in my reply, but that is indeed my problem. I think I know how to fly an arch... however my problem is this exactly. What worry me about flying archs is that I feel I am a bad pilot if I fly a legal arch, inside its limits, but not beautiful, squiggly for example. If I present a squiggly arch I think I am not doing the things well, even if the FAA tells me I was flying inside the rules. How an squiggly path that remember an arch can be considered truly an arch? Those things are the one that confuse me. Sadly not in Spain :( we have norms more restrictive than the FAA. Here, as far as I know it is only 0.5 nautical miles on each side of the arc. I did not find a document that can confirm this, and I am trying to find it, but I have a friend, that is pilot in a low cost, and also flight instructor in Spain and told me 0.5 on each side. I have other friend private pilot and told me also 0.5 nm for Spain. I know in the US is 1 nm (lucky you), it is clearly indicated in the FAA document FAA-S-8081-4E, but as far as I know two persons told me already in Spain this is 0.5 on each side. My problems start and end with the beauty of the path. With wind I cannot get a perfect arch and not always I can fly with the same progression 10/10... sometimes winds change to fast I need to use 5/10 or 10/15...

*** Due an error, I posted this message in a wrong section of the forum. I tried to delete this message, but I cannot. I would need an admin help to delete this threat please. Again, I'm sorry.

I did what you said, and don't work. Knowing your distance to the VOR station with the DME is not enough. You must also be perpendicular to the path... if not, you wouldn't get an arch, you would get a Mexican taco. Really, a Mexican taco. You would get other geometrical shape and not an arch. OBS and HDG are compulsory as far as I know.