I'm counting the hours here ... only 2 days left now ... weeeTruly hope this solves all my problems - sooo many bugs :(MartinGreat airplane btw ;-)

hi,I hope they release it in 3 days but they said it could be as late as the 26th which is saturday :-(. Its a great plane just has some annoying bugs. Knowing how PMDG is about testing, it will probably be released Saturday lol :-(. As long as its a good patch I'll be happy.:-)AndrewPS. Lets not forget that they never actually said what year it was gonna be released in so it could be July 23rd-26th of 2005. lol Just kidding.

HiThe manual had a release date creep of 2 days, but the patch date has moved back at least once on an official level.I believe we will look back on these days when the product has matured and give a light laugh about this. But right now, even a calm and objective person can see that this project panned out on release the way a lot of software does:1) very high goals with extensive detail in many interrelated areas: there are so many nooks and crannies, it is hard to catch everything. The project is ambitious in scope, which means compromises and "we'll get to it later" are norm. 2) (speculating) Not broad enough and perhaps long enough of a beta test period. Many have spent time and energy taking swipes at the beta testers on this board out of their frustration, but it would more seem that there were just too few over too short a period. NDAs and the litigious nature of doing business (esp. online) perhaps understandably keep the truth about the beta test period hidden and there is possibly no dark secret being hidden either - all involved likely did their level best.3) market/personal pressures cause the product to be released in a state that is obviously, now in retrospect, premature. I do not believe this to be a function of any conspiracy, it is likely a decision based on the depth of the beta test and whatever empirical results obtained.I absolutely do NOT think PMDG are crooks or out to get us, but I am disappointed (as many are) at the state of the product upon release. In financial hard times, ponying up $40 (no matter how little or much money you think that is) is a significant investment for a hobby add-on. That being said, software development is no walk in the park and much of what is right about the 737NG product is very very impressive and remarkable.Personally, I would have rather waited and been spared some of my disappoinment, but again I was not in the chorus demanding the earliest possible release either. Even the mighty PIC767, to which (like it or not) the PMDG 737 will be held against for measure, needed a patch to set a few things right. The timing of when to send a product to market is subject to so many factors and influences, that my monday-morning QBing is just that. If (when? ;-) ) the PMDG 737NG rises (for FS2002/FS2004) to the high esteem that PIC767 did, then we will all likely forget these teething problems of the first month. This is no excuse for the blind cronyism we often see here nor for the unyeilding naysayers, but for the most of us, we will be eventually be satisfied. Now whether sharing in the development costs by purchasing at full price as part of the bug catching processes is acceptable as "the way it is" is another debate altogether. We will soon have FS2004 to switch our attention to and perhaps the PMDG folks can move on to the -800, -900 and the BBJ much wiser from this first foray.Cheers,Jeff

Very well written.But I am surprised how many folks are willing to buy a product within the first 3 days of its release (some even within hours). I don't do that no matter how reputable the source.Remember what Reagan once said to Russians: "Trust but verify". It applies to software too, not only to ballistic missiles ;-)Michael J.

Have you bought the product yet ?If yes - then what is the difference buying the product within seconds after it's release, and when you did ?There has been absolutely no change to the package since it's release.Normally NOTHING is changed for a good period after any product release, so I don't see you point at all.On the contrary - I would rather be helpful to test the software and report bugs. The more buyers, the more bug reports, the faster a patch update, and therefore faster working software.Martin

If you need something to do, buy the Dreamfleet 310 twin piston and go flying in the mountains. Great panel, joy to fly, FS2004 compatible out of the box and a wonderful plane to practice your VOR/ADF navigation skills.It should keep you busy until the folks at PMDG release their patch. Colin Ware

Well, those of us who LIKE bug hunting are already busy until the release of the patch :-)In the end of course, what matters is the final outcome. If they do a good job with a first or even a second patch, I personally have no problem with being part of an extended beta test. In fact, you could even argue, odd though it may sound, that it is an essential part of the way things work in the MSFS scene. With so many people taking part, it is the quickest way to get it over with.As a (very satisfied!) customer of PS1 I have seen what a dedication to a bug-free release means: literally months and months of behind the scenes work to get it right. In the MSFS environment there simply is not the time for that, nor I suspect the money.Like I said, if they get it right in the end, I don't mind speeding up the process and lowering the price tag by putting in some of my own time. But if I feel I'm not being taken seriously both as a customer and as a "volunteer", well, that's the last they have seen of my money. So far, I think my $40 gamble will pay off.Leo Bakker

>Normally NOTHING is changed for a good period after any>product release, so I don't see you point at all.I thought the point was obvious. After you get to hear what the state the product is in you can then decide if you want to buy it right away or wait for dust to settle down ... No, I personally don't believe in theory that more bug reports translates to faster update and faster working software. It may happen but it may not, there are few guarantees in life.No, I haven't bought it for the reasons outlined above. I am patient and have plenty of time to wait. I also have to convince myself that I need another transport category airliner. I am drifting away from this weight and size.Michael J.

Leo,Whether one likes bug hunting or not, it seems to be part of an emerging reality for software in general. Your comments about the release cycle for MSFS are salient though.I just find it odd that we rarely settle for this in other products:1) We *sometimes* bug hunt for movie directors when they release the "director's cut" on DVD 6 months (sometime years) later. But usually, we don't bug hunt in our movies.2) We *sometimes* bug hunt with our automobiles in what is called a general recall, but typically, like MSFS, improvements surface in next year's model. Rarely does an automobile hit the market with serious defects or lapses in advertised features.3) We *sometimes* bug hunt with our consumer electronics, which are very often revised as features are enhanced, etc. But your cell phone, PDA, watch usually don't have significant segments of its features INOP. With all of my examples there are exceptions to the rule; this is a given. But software engineering has adopted a pattern of premature release for the simple fact that the variable factors of success on the user end are just too difficult to account for. PMDG has been upfront about their shortcomings and understandably mum whilst bug patching is underway. PMDG and we simmers are in a Catch-22 over this no matter how you slice it: don't buy early, bug patching may take longer; advertise on the merits of accuracy and real-pilot involvment, face embarassment on first-release flaws; tout a solid beta test period, face reality when some fairly big-time and obvious flaws surface.I buy in to everyone's facing reality in this thread and I agree that we have a diamond in the rough that will be among the greats. However, we MUST question and discuss this practice of charging full price for a product that is not fully there. I find it hard to accept that this was entirely unwitting on the part of PMDG. This brings back into light what must be a hard decision for developers like PDMG. There ARE timing issues when releasing a product that affect the bottom line.PS1 (I have it too) is the model product in terms of getting systems 99% (100%?) right and this is becoming a marketing approach for the top-line MSFS add-on developers such as PMDG. Let's face it folks, this is the buy-line on PMDG's site enticing me to spend my $40:"In order to bring the sophistication, technical detail and challenge of commercial airline flying to the enthusiast, we have ensured that BOEING 737: The Next Generation meets exacting standards for quality and completeness."Now, whether or not I can see that the product will eventually attain this level - supporting assertions here that the period we are now in is unimportant considering the final outcome - my $40 TODAY did not get me what is implied in that sentence. Look, I am not against the patient here, I am against the disease. But, alas, I think Leo is right, this is the way it will be for a number of factors. I just remember back to the days of Airline Simulator (anyone remember that far back?) and the early days of MSFS when these things weren't as much of an issue. I suppose with technology accelerating and the degree of features we now enjoy and expect, that PMDG as doing as best as they can and doing as best as any other professional add-on developer can. I know it is a tough business with low profit margins, so I will continue to support. I also think this stuff is worth discussing, no matter how futile it is. If we identify this trend as being flawed, then minds will set out to find improvments over time.Jeff

...Dare I say it, Hardy Heinlein found that he could no longer continue development of Precision Simulator AND maintain his 99% systems accuracy. If you want that level of precision you have to put a HUGE amount of time and research into development of the product... then when you release you find that the goal posts have moved and nobody is using the operating system that you designed the product to run under anymore.I suppose a balance must be found. Personally, I have no problem buying buggy software such as 737TNG, so long as a) fixes and patches are both effective and timely, and :( the product in it's initial release state has reached a "reasonable" level of completion. That "reasonable" level is mostly subjective; I'm happy enough with PMDG's product, especially given the speed with which they (hopefully ;o) release the upcoming patch.Just my opinion,Chris

Well, Lefteris put out a statment today with this near the end of it:"It seems that several key people we're awaiting information from are either on vacation or away for a couple days, so it might be another bit of time until you see our patch out"So being that they obviously did not expect that by the way the sentence starts out and that it was posted today (7/23), I would hazard the guess that we will not see it within the 23-26 of July time frame. I would bet it will be around July 30 to Aug 2 and that is being optimistic.

Chris,In the end, I do agree with your sentiments exactly. However, the issue at large is worthy of constructive and meaning discussion. In our hearts, we all know this case with PMDG will work out.Jeff

We'll all likely be very distracted by FS2004 anyhow.Jeff