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Guest Deacon211

Newbie 737-600/700 Questions

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Guest Deacon211

Gentlemen (and Ladies)As you can see, I'm a newbie here so your kind indulgence is appreciated. I've used the search function but am unable to quite get the answers I'm looking for.I just purchased the 737-600/700 pack and on my maiden voyage using Mr. Clausen's fine tutorial, I ran across a few issues which I'm hoping are from inexperience rather than bugs as I understand this is a mature product and highly regarded.Just a bit of background. I have about 350 hours in the 737-200 flying for Delta. We had neither EFIS nor FMS. I have about 1000 hours in Kingairs and Citations flying for the Marines. We have glass in the Citation and different models of FMS in both aircraft. I just got picked up by SWA and was looking to refresh my systems and flow knowledge using the PMDG 737.1. I was hoping to select the SWA version glass repeater EFIS rather than the full EFIS display but my selection in the Styles menu is greyed out. Reading a little on the forums, I was somewhat dissappointed to gather that I would need to buy the 900 upgrade for this functionality. Is this the case? It would be nice to have the appropriate instrumentation for the SWA aircraft.2. I've noticed some very strange MCP interactions that seem a bit incongruous with the way that the -200 works even though the panels are remarkably similar. a. Selecting LVL CHG, the A/P held a good attitude throughout the IAS portion of the climb, but when the MCP switched to MACH, the FD stayed at about 15 deg NU, and the airspeed continued to decay until I had to manually select V/S, get the IAS under control and then reselect LVL CHG. I've never seen the -200 A/P do that.b. Well before the Top of Descent point as displayed on the ND, I followed the procedures to select the CIVIT arrival into LAX, reset the MCP alt window and tried to arm the VNAV function anticipating that the A/P would hold altitude until the TD at which time it would start a descent to hold the recommended IAS while complying with all crossing restrictions. Instead the AP began an immediate gentle descent and so I had to select Alt Hold. When I reached the TD, I reselected VNAV and the A/C came down like a freight train and failed to hold the speed displayed on both the FMS and bugged on the MCP/PFD although it did manage to make all applicable restrictions. I guess I need to find a FMC V/S selection to give a less passenger frightening ROD! ;)c. When intercepting G/S on approach, even though the PFD shows G/S and VOR LOC armed, the APP light on the MCP isn't illuminated. Can't remember if this is normal but doesn't seem right.Has anyone had any experiences like these or am I just missing something in this particular FMS/AP configuration? Thanks for all the help and for the fine 737! Kurt "Deacon" Swanick

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Guest Hawkeyeted

>Just a bit of background. I have about 350 hours in the>737-200 flying for Delta. We had neither EFIS nor FMS. I>have about 1000 hours in Kingairs and Citations flying for the>Marines. We have glass in the Citation and different models>of FMS in both aircraft. I just got picked up by SWA and was>looking to refresh my systems and flow knowledge using the>PMDG 737.Congrats on the new job with SWA! I'm an aircrewman in the US Navy on the E-2C Hawkeye.>1. I was hoping to select the SWA version glass repeater EFIS>rather than the full EFIS display but my selection in the>Styles menu is greyed out. Reading a little on the forums, I>was somewhat dissappointed to gather that I would need to buy>the 900 upgrade for this functionality. Is this the case? It>would be nice to have the appropriate instrumentation for the>SWA aircraft.Unfortunately, the ability to select airline appropriate flightdeck layouts are activated with the -800/-900 upgrade. All I can say is DO IT!! It's a goat rope, but well worth the upgrade.>2. I've noticed some very strange MCP interactions that seem>a bit incongruous with the way that the -200 works even though>the panels are remarkably similar. >>a. Selecting LVL CHG, the A/P held a good attitude throughout>the IAS portion of the climb, but when the MCP switched to>MACH, the FD stayed at about 15 deg NU, and the airspeed>continued to decay until I had to manually select V/S, get the>IAS under control and then reselect LVL CHG. I've never seen>the -200 A/P do that.I think ther is a service patch for the -600/-700 that fixed many issues with the A/P.>b. Well before the Top of Descent point as displayed on the>ND, I followed the procedures to select the CIVIT arrival into>LAX, reset the MCP alt window and tried to arm the VNAV>function anticipating that the A/P would hold altitude until>the TD at which time it would start a descent to hold the>recommended IAS while complying with all crossing>restrictions. Instead the AP began an immediate gentle>descent and so I had to select Alt Hold. When I reached the>TD, I reselected VNAV and the A/C came down like a freight>train and failed to hold the speed displayed on both the FMS>and bugged on the MCP/PFD although it did manage to make all>applicable restrictions. I guess I need to find a FMC V/S>selection to give a less passenger frightening ROD! ;)You should cruise with VNAV engaged all the time. For the Descent, you would only need to reset the MCP to the resticted altitude. Once reaching the TOD, she will go into Path Descent, at which the speed dialed in is no factor. You can only descend in VNAV via either PATH or SPEED, not both. Prior to the point of airspeed/altitude restriction, she will level off (marked with the words "DECEL" on the ND display) and bleed off the speed. The purpose for PATH descent is that it is the precalculated "efficient" 3-degree descent and does not care about the speed (she'll generally descend at about 300 KIAS until the DECEL point). If you desire to control both IAS and VS, you'll have to disengage the VNAV and use VS and speed-mode on the MCP manually.>c. When intercepting G/S on approach, even though the PFD>shows G/S and VOR LOC armed, the APP light on the MCP isn't>illuminated. Can't remember if this is normal but doesn't>seem right.If you only select LOC it will only follow the localizer, even though the GS is alive. Press APP and she will follow both.>Has anyone had any experiences like these or am I just missing>something in this particular FMS/AP configuration? Thanks for>all the help and for the fine 737!Again, check to see that you've instlled the service patch for the -600/-700. Alternatively, you can purches the -800/-900 (and install it's final patch) and all your troubles go away.

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Guest allblack

Someone practices for real-life using the PMDG and FS?Stunning. There must be sooo much about this plane I'm missing with my lack of knowledge and lack of time to fully read and digest the Manual/s....Time to pull my head in and get on with it me thinks.....Tim

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Yeah, I've read that PMDG knows of some real airline that uses it IIRC. The 800/900 is the cat's meow though, as it has so much more to offer. TCAS II and extra FMC functions. Plenty of new things to make it worth the upgrade, not just the EFIS/MAP displays.Here's Brad Marsh's homepage, he has a guide to the PMDG (Geezer Guide) and flys RW 737NGs. I know he recommends PMDG's operation. Good guy. http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~speedy/


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Guest Deacon211

Hey thanks for the quick replies!Unfortunately, I believe I already have the latest version of the 737 from the website, so it's either still a bug or it's me (I'll give it 50/50 ;) ).Like I said, there must be interactions between the A/P and FMS that I'm just unfamiliar with, but it still seems like the plane isn't acting quite right.The LVL CHG failing to maintain bugged speed is one. For some reason, although the MCP has LVL CHG selected, the FD and the AP is parking the nose up and bleeding down airspeed. I'll need to try it again to see if it repeats.The VNAV on the MCP won't even arm in the Citation until you are close to the TOD point. And then it works just as you said, holding altitude until the TD point is reached but in the sim, the plane began an immediate 300-400FPM ROD. Can't quite figure out why.The APP mode worked just as you said. The only strange thing was that with APP mode armed on the MCP, the G/S captured, and the VORLOC armed, the APP light just went out although the mode still worked properly.Unfortunately, my memory of the events are fading (my short term memory isnt what it used to be) I'll need to mess around more to see if I can get it to repeat.Thanks again for the help.Deacon

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Guest Hawkeyeted

>Like I said, there must be interactions between the A/P and>FMS that I'm just unfamiliar with, but it still seems like the>plane isn't acting quite right.Having never piloted a -200, I'm not sure how the FMC interacts. But, I can tell you in the PMDG the FMC is plugged into EVERYTHING! However, the only time the FMC is controlling the A/P is with either VNAV or LNAV. Otherwise, the MCP settings are controlling the aircraft.>The LVL CHG failing to maintain bugged speed is one. For some>reason, although the MCP has LVL CHG selected, the FD and the>AP is parking the nose up and bleeding down airspeed. I'll>need to try it again to see if it repeats.Yeah, that is weird. When you hit LVL CHG, it should go to max allowable N1, and pitch to control the speed while climbing to the alt set in the MCP.>The VNAV on the MCP won't even arm in the Citation until you>are close to the TOD point. And then it works just as you>said, holding altitude until the TD point is reached but in>the sim, the plane began an immediate 300-400FPM ROD. Can't>quite figure out why.In the PMDG, you can cruise with the VNAV engaged as the FMC will maintain the cruise altitude. If you do so, once you are approaching the TOD and haven't reset the MCP, you'll get an annunciation from the MCP to reset it. If you cruise with ALT HOLD engaged, it will fly right over the TOD and not warn you at all. Best to cruise with VNAV/LNAV both engaged.>The APP mode worked just as you said. The only strange thing>was that with APP mode armed on the MCP, the G/S captured, and>the VORLOC armed, the APP light just went out although the>mode still worked properly.Thats another strange one. The LOC light should go out when you press the APP button (and, of course the APP light should go on....)>Unfortunately, my memory of the events are fading (my short>term memory isnt what it used to be) I'll need to mess around>more to see if I can get it to repeat.Definitely the best way to learn it is to fly it. (I still recommend parting with the Scratch to get the -800/-900 upgrade. Well worth it!)

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Deacon,Maybe I can shed some more light on some of your questions>The LVL CHG failing to maintain bugged speed is one. For some>reason, although the MCP has LVL CHG selected, the FD and the>AP is parking the nose up and bleeding down airspeed. I'll>need to try it again to see if it repeats.This is not how it is supposed to be. Are you sure you have A/T ON? If the A/T isn't armed you will have to use manual throttle. A picture of the MCP and the PFD would help. Pay close attention to the FMA (Flight Mode Annunciator) at the top of the PDA. For LVL CHG and HDG SEL during climb you should see N1|MCP SPD|HDG SEL in the PFD/ND mode or N1|HDG SEL|MCP SPD in EFIS/MAP mode. For descent you should replace the N1 auto throttle mode to ARM on the FMA.>The APP mode worked just as you said. The only strange thing>was that with APP mode armed on the MCP, the G/S captured, and>the VORLOC armed, the APP light just went out although the>mode still worked properly.Don't pay too much attention to what lights are on and off on the MCP. The real telltail of the mode of the aircraft is the FMA. The lit button on the MCP will only tell you it is possible to manually deselect the mode. Basically when the APP light goes out it means you have to disconnect the A/P all together to get out of the mode.>Unfortunately, my memory of the events are fading (my short>term memory isnt what it used to be) I'll need to mess around>more to see if I can get it to repeat.:-) You have the same memory as I do! Hope it helps,


Mats Johansson
PMDG Flight Test Dept
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Guest Deacon211

Hey Guys,Thanks again for the continuing responses.1. I did pony up for the 800/900 just to get the proper PFD for SWA. Plus this is really a great aircraft, and it's my baby both at Delta and, God willing, at SWA until I retire as an old ####!2. The level change problem is definitely a repeat gripe. It seems to work as advertised, then unexplicably the command bars and the nose will program up and the airspeed will decay all the way down to 140 knots on one occasion. I let it go to see if it would hold the nose to stall. The airspeed decayed to well into the red then the nose slowly dropped and the ship recovered.3. Same, same with the VNAV. With the TD symbol still 7-10 miles off, pushing the VNAV button started the ship into an immediate 1000FPM rate of descent. It seems like it will not hold altitude until the TD point as it should.Perplexing. Certainly not a show stopper but I probably would down it when I got back to base. ;)DeaconBTW, I did take some screen caps. I'm just looking for some webspace to host them.

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Hello,I thought that I had read in the manual that the APP light was suppose to extingush when the G/S LOC were locked in on finals. Like, when you are on course for the LOC, you push the LOC button, and when it is captured the LOC button lite extingushes. Then you push the APP button and it lights up until the G/S is captured, then it should extingush. I am fairly sure I read that, and I am trying to findout which manual it was in.Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.John PalmeriBluewolf


John Palmeri

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Guest Hawkeyeted

>Hey Guys,>>Thanks again for the continuing responses.>>1. I did pony up for the 800/900 just to get the proper PFD>for SWA. Plus this is really a great aircraft, and it's my>baby both at Delta and, God willing, at SWA until I retire as>an old ####!>>2. The level change problem is definitely a repeat gripe. It>seems to work as advertised, then unexplicably the command>bars and the nose will program up and the airspeed will decay>all the way down to 140 knots on one occasion. I let it go to>see if it would hold the nose to stall. The airspeed decayed>to well into the red then the nose slowly dropped and the ship>recovered.>>3. Same, same with the VNAV. With the TD symbol still 7-10>miles off, pushing the VNAV button started the ship into an>immediate 1000FPM rate of descent. It seems like it will not>hold altitude until the TD point as it should.Deacon,I'm wondering why you are using the LVL CH to climb, vice VNAV? Once I have the aircraft at 1500 AGL, I engage VNAV and let the FMC climb to the altitude set in the MCP. When cleard to the new alt, I set it in the MCP and hit VNAV again until I reach the cruise altitude set in the FMC. (I never use the LVL CH with the exception of descents AFTER the first latitude restriction). Similarly, I use the LNAV once ATC clears for own nav.

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Guest Deacon211

Hey Ted,The answer is simple really. Habit pattern. At Delta, our 200s didn't have FMS so we had the choice of LVL CHG or VSPEED. I usually preferred VSPEED as LVL CHG could be a bit rough. Coming down, again we used VSPEED, with LVL CHG being common below 10k when we had other stuff to worry about.By the same token, our Marine Citations have FMS but not Autothrottle, so we don't use the climb function much at all.As a result, while I'm learning the FMS, which looks identical to the Southwest unit, I just used the MCP.Either way though, it isn't quite working the way I believe it is designed to.Still, this is definitely helping me remember my flows though!Deacon

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Guest Deacon211

Any other possible thought's about this?Deacon

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Guest Deacon211

Well, I took a longer trip from KDAL to KPHX and ran the AP through a typical flight. Both the LVL CHG and the VNAV worked 4.0. I have no idea what was different, save for the fact that I allowed the AP to level off at 10k just to see what it would do. Then I reselected LVL CHG after resetting 36000 in the MCP and she climbed right on up with no problem.It's the unrestricted climb that she seems not to like, for whatever reason. I can just hear the maintainers now: "Cannot duplicate. Works 4.0 on deck!"Must be a problem with the nut behind the stick ;)Deacon

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Guest flightgamer

That doesn't make sense....I fly for Simulated SWA as well, and i was very let down that i could not choose the split EFIS capability.... so i have to buy and aircraft that SWA doesn't even fly in order to accurately use the split EFIS capability? and once i purchase 800/900 then the Split EFIS will be "activated" in my 700??? Just curious... but the aircraft is great, just now im trying to work on the accuracy of my aircraft to the airline i fly for....Thanks

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Kylan,The Upper/Lower Eicas option was a part of the 800/900 upgrade when it was released. Installing the 800/900 to your current PMDG 737 600/700 will give you the option to run the Upper Lower Eicas on your existing 600/700 models. Remember, you can also add the Clickable VC to those models as well after installing the 800/900 by downloading and running the "800/900 model udate" from our downloads area.RegardsPaul Gollnick :-cool Technical Operations/Customer Operational SupportPrecision Manuals Development Groupwww.precisionmanuals.comhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/priv/img/forum/sig_pmdg.jpg


Paul Gollnick

Manager Customer/Technical Support

Precision Manuals Development Group

www.precisionmanuals.com

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