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PMDG 744: PAX and Fuel Calculator

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A question to the PMDG 744 devloppers:Does the program include a PAX and fuel calculator for the 744? If not, do you have some alternativ PAX and fuel calculator?Thank you for your answer.Best regardsMarcel

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I will use the FSBUILD for fuel and flightplanning but a pax loader is proberly included as the PMDG 737NG had that aswel.

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Hi ! one thing that always have been crossing my mind on this passenger loader is. Since the Boeing 744 is such a big aircraft and airlines have so many diffrent seating configurations.For example BA has one config and UA another i was wondering if u PMDG guys could make it so the seat layout will be the same as in diffrent airlines accross the world using the Boeing 744?? some seat more economy passengers others less etc. Would be a really kool thing. I hope you guys at PMDG understand what i mean and if its not to much to ask i would like a response.So basicly alittle bit more advanced then normally so you can configure the seat maps as you fly diffrent airlines if i fly BA i want BA passenger configuration in the airplane itself you know.Best regards:Alexander

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330 views and no reply?? thats good to know LOL.Bumply bump.Best regards:Alexander

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480 views ! i demand an answear.so BUMP.Best regards:Alexander

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My guess is that it won't be done. You can't expect them (PMDG) to go scour for airline seating arrangement among different air carriers. And what would it give you in terms of extra simulation experience - practically nil. If one airline can fit for example 20 more seats than the other one it is still inconsequential in terms of the overall weight of 744. Common sense goes long way.As to the original question - real aircraft doesn't have fuel calculator so no wonder this one won't have either. Normally dispatch centers provide pilot with fuel requirements but pilot of course can modify it. I am not sure why some are trying to make a science out of it. The hardest thing is to know the average winds but the rest is elementary - and you can practically calculate fuel in your head. And if you carry sufficient reserves (like you should always do) then there is even less need for precise calculations.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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First of all-DEMANDING an answer won't get you far in this forum. It's annoying.Secondly, there's going to be a Load Manager. I am working on that myself, as we speak (so I am halting temporarily, to answer your question). We're still debating a Fuel Calculator.Hope this helps,

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The NG had one, I'm sure the Queen will as well.And about the different seating configs... personally I'd rather see the aircraft and systems modeled and tested to perfection rather than something as minor and time consuming as that

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Something like LDS did will do the trick.So you can select Random load, full load....And fuel calculator isn't necesary for me, as long as you guys at PMDG supply Eric from FSBUILD the data he needs to make them avail for FSBUILD.

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Hello Lefteris,A fuel calculator would make life a lot simpler for me and possibly most non-hardcore simmers. Would be great if it could import wind data from flightsim/ASV... Having the load manager print a load sheet similar to the load sheet a flight crew would receive in real life would be fantastic.Regards,Paul

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>As to the original question - real aircraft doesn't have fuel>calculator so no wonder this one won't have either. Normally>dispatch centers provide pilot with fuel requirements but>pilot of course can modify it. I am not sure why some are>trying to make a science out of it. The hardest thing is to>know the average winds but the rest is elementary - and you>can practically calculate fuel in your head. And if you carry>sufficient reserves (like you should always do) then there is>even less need for precise calculations.Michael,I know that this post is going to come across as rude, but I just can't think of any nicer way to say this. I hope you understand.To imply that calculating fuel requirements is elementary, and can be done in one's head is simply proposterous. Sure, its easy to estimate, but accurate flight/fuel planning is something that dispatchers spend a lot of time learning. Here's two scenarios for you. The first shows the excruciatingly easy method of "calculating" the fuel load that you advocate:1)Assuming that my CRJ will burn an estimated 3,000lb/hr the first hour and 2,000lb/hr every hour after that, you figure that your 1.5 hour trip will require 4,000lb of Jet A. Kick the tires nad light the fires!This second one is how it works in the real world:(Note that I don't have a release sitting in from of me, so I'm making up reasonable numbers for demonstration purposes)Check your load manifest, and calculate estimated pax weights. Add this weight to the Basic Operating Weight, and check that you haven't exceeded Max Zero Fuel Weight. We've got a full boat - 50 pax at 233lb each. Thats 11,650lb.Look at your weather. Uh oh! There's a big line of thunderstorms moving into the NY Metro area. Whats the EWR METAR say? 30022G31KT 1/2SM R22R/2400V2800FT +TSRA BR VV002 24/24 A2959 RMK LTG ICCCCG TS OVHDLooks like EWR is hanging on by the skin of its teeth, and the TAF isn't any better. We better pick a solid Alterate, because we might just have to divert. ALB looks good, but thats on the other side of the line, and I don't want to have to penetrate a Level 4 thunderstorm to get to my alternate. Lets use ACY instead.Whats the FAA OIS page say? No GDP's or Ground Stops for the NY Metros yet. But the ATC Coordinator just heard on the SPO call that EWR was down to a 35 Arrival Rate due to wx/lo cigs, and they're gonna Ground Stop. If we don't get out soon, we'll be sitting on the ground in IAD for the next 3.5 hours waiting for our EDCT (Estimated Departure Clearance Time)...The dispatcher sitting across from you just got an ACARS from his jet inbound to EWR. That flight just got put into the Hold over DuPont VORTAC. EFC (Expect Further Clearance) at 2100z...thats 45 minutes from now. I better plan at least 2000lb of Hold Fuel.Since the routes into NY are altitude capped to FL270 by ATC, we don't have to waste too much time figuring out our Max Altitude given our current Gross Weight and ISA Deviation.Now I'm gonna look through the ATC preferred routes stored on the computer. I'm looking for one that avoids most of the bad weather...more accurately, one that avoids where I think the weather is going to be when we get there. If I can't find one, I'll have to bust out my US HI charts and plan a route myself.Once I find one (or build one manually), I need to give the almighty computer all of the puzzle pieces it needs to generate a "rough draft" release.Origin, Destination, 1st Alternate, 2nd Alternate, Route of Flight, Flight Level, Climb/Descent Profile, Mach Number, Payload, Hold Fuel, Extra Fuel, and Taxi Fuel.Using the data I provided, along with external wind/temp data, and known aircraft performance, it generates a release. It will tell me my calculated fuel burn, headwind/talwind/crosswind components, Time/Distance and Fuel to every waypoint along the route of flight, Runway Length required, T/O N1 and flap setting, V speeds, Engine-Out performance data, and a host of other things.I have to review the whole thing, and make any changes I think are necessary for safety of flight. I might see that we're 1800lb over MTOW, and given the weather conditions, I'm not going to plan less fuel. So that means passengers come off.Or maybe, I find that we're 300lb below MTOW, and we can squeeze another 300lb of fuel onboard. Perhaps I notice that the APU door is locked in the open position, and now I have to plan the flight at 300kt or slower to comply with an MEL speed restriction. Possibly, we're missing 10ft of aerodynamic sealant, and I have to apply a 2% penalty to calculated fuel burn...The point is, there are a thousand factors that go into this process, and theres always one or two more that you didn't think of. Please don't confuse "fuel load estimation" with proper flight planning.I, for one, would really like to see PMDG come out with a proper fuel planner or Dispatch Center. Flight planning takes on a whole new face when you're trying to plan a long range flight, and lots of things become much less cut and dry. For instance, how much faith do you have in a TAF that will be 14 hours old by the time you get there? And rules governing IFR and International Reserve Fuel are much more complex. All of this makes the planning function even more important.Just for giggles, here is a pic of a release for CRJ-200 unpressurized ferry flight from BTV to ORD at 10,000ft.I don't have a scanner, so I busted out the digital camera:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/121045.jpgAnd here is what the Takeoff/Landing Data portion looks like:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/121044.jpgRegards,Nick

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Nick,Points well taken. However this assumes that one wants to simulate flights in 744 that would squeeze every available ton of MTOW out of this aircraft. Do people here want to fly 14+ hour trips and carry all the cargo they can possibly carry? If they do then fuel calculations can truly become tricky. But knowing life I bet that 99% of such flights will be "flown" on shorter routes with plenty of space for fuel reserves. Sure carrying hefty amount of extra fuel in real life is expensive and wasteful but not sure we have to worry about it in this simulated world.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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First of all i wanna apoligize to Lefteris if i got on his nervs it was never intended. I just found it odd that there were so many views and no response.Also iam glad to know there is work in progress on the passenger editor etc. Just one more thing.I got a tad of a problem with but im just trying to be supportive thats all. Here it goes.Say if i were in a store saying i would like to know something before i bought it i wouldnt even have to demand becuse i know the salesman would be kind enough to answear my question.He wouldnt come and tell me i dont wanna answear your question becuse its annoying as u put it.Best regards:Alexander

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Alexander-apology accepted.The product is not for sale yet. There are no salesmen ready to answer questions, because it's still being developed. Our track record shows a very high degree of dedication to answering forum questions and supporting our customers, but first, we need to actually finish the work, so people "demanding" to know stuff about unfinished products are counter-productive.Hope this answers your question.

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Gentlemen:On the question of total fuel upon takeoff, it is very important in the real world from a monetary cost point of view. I am retired now, but when I worked for a CPA firm, we audited the New York Port Authority, the owner of JFK etc., major airports in the New York metro area. Airlines were charged on take off weight for each aircraft. The weight of the basic aircraft and cargo was known. A per person pound factor was calculated, and then the amount of fuel on board was included. Also included was a depreciation factor on the terminal facilities used by the Airline, and a pro rata share of the depreciation cost of the general airport areas, such as roadways, parking, buildings and runways. We were hired by the airlines (they formed a committee for this purpose), to insure that the charges to them were in accordance with the contract with the NY Port Authority. A significant factor of the cost was the fuel weight upon take off. Therefore airlines were verycareful not to carry more fuel upon take off than was necessary. Stanner

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There is a flight planner available for simmers that meets most of your goals. Check out Flight Operations Center capabilities for detailed flight planning and dispatching. I use it for most of my flights and enjoy the comparison of calculated versus actual (time,fuel, etc)while en route. And I cannot do all the math in my head! :)http://www.danur.com/frontpage/index.htmI don't feel PMDG has any obligation to provide such tools.Bob... :)

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Surely all you 737 jocks remember, love and use Ross's great fuel calculating utility...?? :-hahI, for one, wouldn't be surprised if he steps in with another neat calculator for the 744. But that's just my opinion.Cheers,Tony

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>First of all->>DEMANDING an answer won't get you far in this forum. It's>annoying.>>Secondly, there's going to be a Load Manager. I am working on>that myself, as we speak (so I am halting temporarily, to>answer your question). We're still debating a Fuel>Calculator.>>Hope this helps,Great to know Lefteris, however I think a fuel calculator would really be a good addition to the Queen since it gets more critical in Fuel Planning on longer journeys.

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Hi Michael,I'm sure you're right. I, for one, will not be flying 14 hour hops. However, I know that a lot of people here do in fact fly long range transatlantic and transpacific flights. Further, I'd be willing to bet that they make up more than 1% of the fan base, but its kind of irrelevent, and here's why:The vast majority of people who buy PMDG products buy them because they offer an extraordinary level of detail and realism. They enjoy using checklists, running flows, and programming the "box". For what purpose? To simulate reality. For that reason, I would think that most users would also enjoy accurately planning their flights, a la the real world.And I know my previous post was long winded, but just because a flight isn't full, or isn't flying a maximum range sortie, doesn't mean its planned any differently. I plan CRJ flights from IAD-MDT exactly the same way I dispatch DC-10's from MIA-LUX. One is Max Range/Max Payload, and the other is 20 minute "bounce"...no difference to me.Again, the driving force behind my argument is that PMDG users strive for realism, and this is how its really done. Its not mandatory in the sim world, but its a really nice option to have.Cheers,Nick

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