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JHepburn

KEGE: I know it's possible, but how the HECK do I get ...

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Greetings all!Well I decided to fly some difficult approaches with the 737 in order to pass the time to the 74 arrives. I tried flying a quick jump from KSLC to KEGE in the 737-700, but I could not get into the airport after a few tries.First, I noticed on airliners.net that they actually put commercial 757's into that airport (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/226515/L/)...so I guess it should be possible with a 737 as well.Here is the link to the approach I tried (RNAV into RW 25) - http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0507/06403RD.PDFOk, so I arrive at the FAF NEPRY+3NM configured for landing at VREF+5 = 135 kts (flaps 40) and 9860FT AGL as charted.My calculation for descent rate are as followscurrent restricted altitude-TDZE = altitude to lose...(9860-6536 = 3325FT)Distance to threshold = 3.5NM135KTS/60 = 2.25 NM per minute so... It should take approaximately 1.56 minutes until touchdown. For arguments sake and to allow a little manuever space lets round that to 1.5 minutes until TD.All that said, I would need a constant descent rate of just over 2200 feet per minute to make it down. Since the normal rate of descent is in the neighborhood of 700-800 feet per minute my question is how do they fly this thing in real life? In the sim, if I maintain that descent rate I bust all sort of flap speed restrictions and the GPWS starts going nuts. That says nothing of most airline SOP requiring a stabilized descent at 1000' AGL. What about missed approach performace as the MAP is not until .5 miles from the TDZE?Can some please shed some light on how this is really done? Thanks!!!

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I am -- uhm -- how do I say this without trying to sound wierd. . . ? An "obsessed study" on KEGE . . . . Okay maybe not, but I have made it an obsession, and I absolutely LOVE the approach.First let me say this. You will need the most current charts for the airport, and follow the GPS approach explicitly. Follow all altitude constraints and . . . I am going to say this adamently . . . HAND FLY THE APPROACH!!!!I have talked to many of the airliner pilots that fly in and out of there and they will all concur with me on this. The FMC just isn't meant to take mountain and steep approaches like that.Also KEGE is a LOC approach, not an ILS, so do not expect any glideslop assistance other than the PAPI.This is a fun approach and I do it in the NG all the time, as well as the LDS 767.You did everything right as far as I can see in your post, but the flight computer just can't handle that approach effectively. That is why that route is given to expert piltos in real life. Every KEGE pilot I have spoken to in flight forums have stated that route is practically a hard earned bragging right with captains of the 757. After attempting it just with the NG and then going on the opposite end of the spectrum and taking the 767 in there, I can clearly see why.Two things you will use religiously on this approach -- your flaps and your spoilers. And you will also need one primary tool -- your hand-flying coordination.If you want, I will send you the full set of charts I currently have from AOPA. I see the GPS approach you are using as the one most commnly used, and it is a good approach for airliners.oA small tip here. Use the altitude constraints only until you can see the runway. If you are in good visability conditions, then once you can see that PAPI and the runway, get off those instruments and get her down by those skills you found most valuable in VFR flying your cessna.I learned that one the hard way. In poor vid conditions the aproach is a challange, but you WILL want to stick to the altitude constraints, but in good vis conditions DAYTIME use your eyes. NIGHT time use the constraints NO MATTER WHAT, and I am sure you know why if you flew the approach already (the mountain that you turn over at 11100 feet). Now I know a lot of hardcore "computer flyer: pilots are going to jump all over me for writing all of this, but I am going on what I learned from studying the words of pilots who fly this approach in real life. Not a single one of them will say anything about an automated approach. Once you get to RLG of FIDLE, get off that autopilot and start preparing for one of the most thrilling approaches in the United States for airliners.At the AWACC intersection there are no more obstacles, so day OR night you can use the PAPI to get her down past that point.Okay that said let's hit your last paragraph. let me say there is NOTHING SOP for this type of approach. Start getting yourself slowed down to approach speed at the TOP of the approach. Yes, you read me right. Start slowing the bird and get down to start slowing to 160 as you pass GLD or FIDLE. By the time you get to POWRS, with this method, you should be perfect for the approach. I usually get there with about 15 flaps and a good speed handling capability. Get tio AWACC and start scrambling for the final settings and your lending REF speed for your current weight.Most airline SOPs do not accomodate for mountain difficult approaches like this. Airliner approach SOP's were meant for regular airspaces like SLC or DEN. EGE is renowned for having one of the best airliner approaches we know in the US. The reason for that is the tourist demand there. It's really unique and I love going there to get some AWESOME looks at the birds landing.That is the least to say that the charts you are using can be VERY easily flown if you are a GA pilot, but the airliners really do, and pardon the pun, have to "wing it" for getting into that place. Want to see some of the most interesting flares and landings you have ever seen? Go to KEGE and stand there for a few hours with a camera **laughs**Let me know if that works for you.

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NEPRY is the MAP (missed approach point). After that, and if the airport is in sight when you reach NEPRY at 8900', it's a circle-to-land on runway 25 or 7 (check out the minimums). So, as long as you ALWAYS keep the field in sight, you can descend, and maneuver, as necessary for a visual approach to either runway 7 or 25. There's nothing on that chart that suggests you need to go direct from NEPRY to a landing on either runway. Also note the restrictions on Class C and D aircraft at night (737 is Class C) that states there is no circling authorized to the south of runway 7-25.

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I dont consider myself an expert but I think I can fly the NG and the Level D quite well. I programmed the RNAV GPS approach from: http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/index.php into the FMC and flew in there with no problems. I found it pretty easy following the restrictions and getting established for landing by POWRS and all went quite well. I did hand fly it I took the advice not to let the computer and autopilot fly the approach.Thanks for the heads up I enjoyed the flight in there and the is nice scenery for it here on Avsim.

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Ok, so perhaps this is all due to a lack of my knowledge of what you are or aren't allowed to do during approach.If I am told by atc that I am cleared for the Rnav approach to RW25, am I allowed to perform a visual approach provided the runway is in sight? If yes, does that mean I have authority to deviate from the approach plate or descend below 9860 feet at NEPRY+3 as long as I don't lose sight of the runway?I should say that I am hand flying this bird, but I am trying to comply with the altitude restrictions marked on the approach plate.Thoughts? Thanks!

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Another thought...Does anyone have any links to things like ATC Phraseology and what different clearances mean? Also, a detailed list of the VFR and IFR flight rules and flight rules within different airspace classes.Most of the stuff I have learned has been here on this forum, so I'd like to broaden my knowledge to be a little more versatile in my flying.Thanks!

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Andrew . . . aye fun approach, isn't it? **smiles**Jeff . . . In real life, follow ATC for everything they tell you, but in FS2004 do not follow ATC for this approach. They almost will certainly vector you into mountains every time. ESPECIALLY if you are like me and use FSGenesis terrain mesh.OH -- speaking of which, for the best experience, I HIGHLY suggest using that scenery Andrew mentioned. It's a beautiful rendering of KEGE as an airport. I myself personally made a wonderful AFCAD for the airport that accurately lets in the 757's and then I wrote flight plans for their schedules to make the airport busy with tourists.Unfortunately . . . i have to rewrite the plans as a reformat of my windows wiped my file :-P Grrr. Fortunately it only took me a few hours to write the plans.Anyway, use that wonderful freeware, with FSGenesis for the terrain mesh and Ultimate terrain for the landclass, lighting, streams, roads and railroads and you are in for a real treat -- especially not only in this area but in SLC as well (the lake is SO much better with the shorelines fixed!)But definately do not follow ATC into the hills . . . they like you to make out with the mountain sides and I do NOT think that is the type of tree hugging we wish to do today **laughs**Ah . . and as for descending below NEPRY, 9860 is considered the approach minimums. If you have the runway in site even before Nepry, go for it. Now unless you are in IFR conditions, you SHOULD have the runway in site at AWACC, and if you follow the altitude constraints in FS you will almost always have the solid white PAPI at AWACC, meaning you will have to slope in a bit steep to get onto the glideslope.However in IFR conditions, angle it so you get to NEPRY at 9860, and if you have the runway in site, she's all yours. If not, missed approach time. That is something highly emphasized is that on mountain approaches there are times to slide and times not to slide. In IFR conditions where visability is poor, you have to stay at or above minimums unless you for SURE see the runway or you do the MA and go to the alternate destination (usually Denver in thi case). The mountains around here are beautiful, but sometimes the most beautiful things can be the deadliest, and in this case that is definately the rule for aviators.On another note - in IFR conditions at ANY airport, mountain or not, in IFR conditions the same rule applies for the minimums for missed approach. They made those minimums for a reason. In clear conditions where you can SEE where you are going, those rules change, but in IFR low vis conditions, those minimums can save your life.In answer to your ATC clearances question . . . I highly suggest using the resources that are found at http://www.aopa.org I am a proud member of AOPA and they provide MANY resources for safety and research for members and non members alike. However, if you are into flying I very highly suggest spending the 35 dollars to get a membership. I spend 53 dollars and not only have my membership, but I get discounts at FBO's and a folly of knowledge from a monthly subscription to AOPA Pilot magazine and -- the one you'd probably be the most interested in - AOPA Flight Training Magazine.

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Thanks Chris, I appreciate the comments.Well, I just shot the approach and it was absolutely awesome. I executed a visual approach in perfect weather. I crossed AWACC at 11,100 feet and then dodged the mountains on the way in.I still believe that performing this approach as charted and adhering strictly to the altitude crossing restrictions is not possible in a swept wing commercial jet aircraft. If it is, I'd love to see a picture of how you did it :)Thanks for the help! BTW, I haven't used the microsoft ATC in years...it drives me bonkers. Thanks!

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Yer right -- it's not possible unless you configure and throw out those flaps to about 15 at the TOD. LOL. It's a steep approach for sure. Even last night in my Feelthere Caravan it was a pain in the neck. In the caravan I threw full flap at AWACC and still had a heck of a time keeping the speed down on the dive to meet the VASI.

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I can't believe I never knew EGE had these types of flights or that this airport even existed as an airline port. I am so embarased. What a hidden gem. I'm going to fly there tomm. in the sim.I see they are testing the new ILS there in the real world.

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Aye they are, but it is a tricky ILS . . LOL . . . okay you know how London City is considered a "steep approach" because of the angle? Same concept here, only more obstacles to dodge.The primary business here is both summer and winter. Int he Summer it is all of the camping and lodging tourists. In the winter it is the ski areas that are abundant here. Commonly seen here is the 757, but there are also a few airbuses and regional types that come in and out too.The reason the airlines use the 757 on this route is by shear handling of the aircraft. Any of us that have experienced a 757 -- especially POSKY's model, know it's handling power.If you read up you will find that the real 757 is much the same way. If airlines need flexability and good handling with the abilities for large passenger loads, the 757 is the way to go. Heck she'll even outdo the smaller airlienrs such as the 737 and A320 sliding in there.If PMDG ever makes a 757 model, you know JUST where I will be taking her almost daily **smiles**If you do a search on Airliners.net for KEGE, you'll get a great idea just what types go in there. Over 85 percent of the pictures though, as you'll see, are 757's.

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Is there an afcad or scenery for KEGE somewhere for FS9?edit: nevermind, found it on the library here. can't wait to check her out, thanks!

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how disappointing! So do the airlines drop KEGE from their schedules for the summer or something? none of my summer plans (i have all the majors) show a 757 coming into KEGE at all!! That sucks!!

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AHA!I forgot to mention that you have to go look at the site for KEGE to see the schedules. I **thought** I uploaded plans for that airport.I also made an AFCAD for the freeware add-on that is available on AVSIM that gives larger parking that would allow 757's there. IF I can find them (I lost a lot of files with this reformat - -I am still reinstalling my payware even as I write this response) I will upload them to avsim.If I find the flight plans I will paste them right here for you to copy right on into your AI plans to use as you please. FYI I use all aircraft from Project AI and am a proud support of Project AI. If it were not for them, there would be no Ultimate Traffic or (I forget the other name of the major add-on competetor for UT, but both got their "goods" from Project AI in return for support of PAI to keep the freeware free for us -- which i think is REALLY awesome!!!!)Unfortunately I found that no plans were ever published for KEGE. So I wrote my own. I cheated though, as they DO have a "dead" season which no 757's float in there. I took the busy season and made that my year round plans for FS9. :-) Besides -- at the rate Eagle CO is going, that will be the case eventually. That place is starting to get as popular as TNCM for plane spotters.

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Bad news . . .I checked and my PAI is totally gone. I will have to re-write everything from scratch and re-download all of my AI traffic.However if you are familiar with TTools, it is VERY VERY easy to get those written and I bet you could be using them for yourself and havign a blast before I even get the chance to get to it myself.

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Hi Jeff -Here is a link to the FAA ATC publications page, PDF or HTML formats. I highly recommend the AIM - Aeronautical Information Manual and the 7110.65 - Air Traffic Control.http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/Chris Saunders

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LOL, I have all those links. As a real world pilot myself I also keep paper charts.Thanks for the info.

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Same . . . have library . . . will travel.**smiles**

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Hi guys. I just tried out this fun approach for the first time. Thanks for the advice. Another fun approach you might try is Aspen's offset loc (KASE). It's quite close to Eagle. Anyway, I winged it the first time landing in RWY 25. Not very hard. Just followed your instructions and went for a dive after busting the minimums a few hundred feet (hey, I was VFR!). But things must be very very unconfrtable for the pax sitting close to the tail since final angle is negative (I know for a fact that in the 777 at least 2 degrees nose down is enough for uncomfortable pax).Continuing, I had a tailwind which meant I should've entered the Rwy 07 downwind and circling for that rwy; but after studying the terrain I concluded it is literally impossible for a 737 to circle and land on rwy 07. There's a huge mountain (at least in FS9) not one mile from that rwy. I tried circling north for Rwy07 anyway, and got all sorts of GPWS shouting at me. Anyway, I can picture a light twin turning tight base for rww 07, But I think I need to see to believe when it comes to 757s or 737s. Just my two cents. Unless they come in at final with an offset and correct it cose to the threshhold, like Kai Tak or Hawaii LDA approaches (only without radio guidance).Regards,Victorhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/800driver.jpg

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>RW25, am I allowed to perform a visual approach provided the>runway is in sight? Yes you are. Controllers really do not monitor how well you fly your approach. Approach charts are for you the pilot to get safely on the ground. If you have visual contact with the runway you can do whatever you want.. short of flying circles. Also if visual conditions were really good controllers would suggest a visual approach on their own.Michael J.

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Actually I circle to land in 737's, 757's and even the 767 all the time.The charts have specifics on that. Basically make it a RIGHT downwind, clearing the hills near the airport. There is a valley up ahead which I actually turn left into and then turn right to approaCH THE RUNWAY FROM A 45 DEGREE ANGLE THROUGH THE VALLEY. tHIS GIVES ME A NICE, COMFY APPROACH AND THE PAX GET LOTS OF TOURISTS PHOTOS OF THE AREA lol.Annnnd . . my caps lock i just realized was on and I wasn't looking at the screen, but I am not typing all that over again. Heheh.Least to say in the 737 and even the 757 you can do a regular right pattern withOUT the valley trick I just described.NOTE: Do NOT attempt a runway 7 approach in IMC. Only in clear, good conditions where wind permits shoudl this be done. Even with tailwinds, IFR in IMC always use the 25 approach.And I agree -- that Aspen approach is a killer too, but I lvoe the Eagle approaches more for variences in practice. Aspen is beautiful though -- especially with the terrain add-ons I have.

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>>RW25, am I allowed to perform a visual approach provided>the>>runway is in sight? >>Yes you are. Controllers really do not monitor how well you>fly your approach. Approach charts are for you the pilot to>get safely on the ground. If you have visual contact with the>runway you can do whatever you want.. short of flying circles.>Also if visual conditions were really good controllers would>suggest a visual approach on their own.>>Michael J.>Agreed. I hear some very interesting calls on the scanner when i am in that area. I think my favorite was a 757 (United) asking about "bouncing the passengers" out on a hilltop to save the landing sequence LOL. Tower said they would not be responsible for whatever the FAA did to them, but no matter what, they had to make sure none of the skiers hit any of the other planes on the way down.

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