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Guest jaapverduijn

I'd better be gone then.

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Greetings Forum!Recently a post of mine was removed because it was deemed sexually totally out of line by the moderators of this forum.They and I are living in different worlds, on different sides of the Atlantic Ocean, in different cultures, with different histories, with different opinions about what's out of line and what's not. These differences are so big, that initially I didn't even know what Tom was talking about, until I received an email with an explanation. It is clear that a few remarks/words that would be perfectly alright in any public forum for all age groups in my own country (The Netherlands), remarks that would not even raise one hair of an eyebrow here, and that were made by me in total innocence... are unacceptable in this here good old Avsim forum.I don't want to walk on eggs, for in all fairness and honesty I never really know what's objectionable to Americans and what is not. Most Europeans don't; although we are aware that American culture is much more uptight about these things, it's hard for many of us (like me) to know where Uncle Sams nephews and nieces draw the line. Certainly not in a place we would draw it, that's for sure.I do not want, and in my recent posting did not want, to insult or embarrass anybody. If my recent posting did, I'm sorry... although I can't for the life of me figure out why it would. As I said, I do not want to walk on eggs, and to be fair: I think this kind of moderating is coming close to perversion. For only the perverted mind sees smut where others don't. Anyway, when a clash of cultures occurs on the private ground (like this privately owned forum) of the "other" culture, I gracefully bow out. It's better for me not to post here anymore, for if I did, I would need to make another nations opinions on "what's smut and what's not" my own. I've been (among other things) a professional writer for nearly 40 years now, with a dozen books to my name and countless short stories, articles, essays etcetera. When I write something, I do that because I want it to be written; when I leave something out it is because I want it to be left out. And I'll be darned if I am going to write what others want me to write, or to leave out what others want me to leave out. So if the owner of the place doesn't appreciate my style and the (compared with America) rather relaxed culture I write from, I cannot in all fairness do anything else but honor his right to decide what's written here and what's not, and thus... remove myself from the premises. Be well, all of you!Jaap Verduijn.

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Hi JaapYou don't need to leave. There are many many cultures, religionas and age groups here and we all respect each other and we all get along. Just because you have a different culture does not mean you don't belong here.When I post on forums in order to not cause trouble I have 3 things that I do not touch on.1. Religion2. Politics3. SexualityIf we avoid reference to those 3 things we can get along very well without any hard feelings. If we break rules then we get warned and we should learn a lesson to not do that again. You were warned and you can continue to stay here if you choose.Don't leave.Take careMike

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We've been an international forum for a long time--I'd say the forum is divided almost equally between those in the States and those in other parts of the world. I'm sorry I missed the deleted post--since I don't know to what extent you might have offended someone. But it sounds like from reading your text in this thread that even you recognize that your post

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As the person who red-flagged your post, your last paragraph is not something I would want my kids to read, nor something I like coming into my place of work, nor was it even remotely required for a support forum about flight simulation.Your post here is actually even more offensive in nature as I, the guy who probably got your post nuked am not AMERICAN, yet you condemn them for actions taken on my complaint. Calling Americans uptight, just because they saw fit to remove your post which offended non-americans really ranks right up there as pretty racist.We live in an international world these days, political correctness is just common sense. Sorry that you feel unable to be a part of it.Ray

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Now if that isn't the ultimate irony. :-lolThanks Ray for pointing that out. So much for American "perversions", heh? And.. which of course, goes to prove our point; AVSIM is indeed an international community and we do balance our policies against that reality. If a person can't live with that, then they ARE indeed better off going somewhere else.

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Most of my post vanished.... Just the first few lines show... So here again is my response to the thread's author, so he doesn't feel it's a moderator issue alone: We've been an international forum for a long time--I'd say the forum is divided almost equally between those in the States and those in other parts of the world. I'm sorry I missed the deleted post--since I don't know to what extent you might have offended someone. But it sounds like from reading this thread that even you recognize that your post could have been considered inappropriate.But, as a parent and a teacher, I see in your thread here something I've seen in my own child and my students--an attempt to shift what you may have worded wrong into a "nation vs. nation" issue. One of the most challenging things in the world is to take responsibility for one's own actions. And one of the most common signs that "growing up" (at any age) needs to take place in when the person involved tries to shift the focus away from the issue at hand.If you are a writer, you could be an incredible asset to this community. Writers are teachers, and help illuminate issues and add clarity to our world as well. I don't get a chance to shine often here, but I do have a perspective on the issues you cite--having been poet laureate at my high school and university, and having been published in a half dozen anthologies back in the late 70's. How I ended up supporting and teaching networking is beyond me :) But life takes strange curves, doesn't it?Back to your post--as a writer, you must know after 40 years of writing that you choose your prose based on your audience. Here, we have an audience of children, and if you can't see why you shouldn't adjust your style accordingly, I really can't help you. Whether you stay or not, it's your call... But here we don't care where you come from and what your culture is, as long as you add to our hobby...-John

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Hello. I've always been impressed with the Dutchman's adeptness with the English language, and you write impeccably. But as a fluent writer of some 40 years it's surprising you haven't had more exposure to the societies of the world and their culture, and in particular US culture. You claim a cultural naivete that's a bit hard to fathom really. Regardless, if you were genuinely unaware of any offence caused it could have just been an unexpected learning opportunity for you. Clearly though you've elevated it to the level of a "clash of cultures." You do it gracefully, but it's a bit melodramatic nonetheless.I'm a Euro--an Englishman actually--and I live in America, and it's my firm opinion that in most areas the Americans have got it about right when it comes to general standards of societal behaviour. Yes, that is a bit broad, and you can cite glaring exceptions no doubt...but still, that's generally my opinion. I say it because from time to time these "You Americans don't understand our international perspective" opinions surface--and it seems to me it's frequently with a bit of a sneer and some condescension expressed towards the Americans. Not that you did that mind you; you simply disagree strongly enough to leave, and it's well that you do. Of course in doing so you're implying that something's amiss.Well, international resentments of the Americans--muted, dulled, disguised or flagrantly open--notwithstanding, I personally find the Americans an awesome lot. Regardless, this is an American-owned forum, it centers on an American product, and most of the technology you use to access it is American. If it was an Italian or Swiss location we'd have to follow their standards, but it's American. So there we are. Look, I don't like having to do it, but I'm forced to admit the Brazilians are the world's best when it comes to soccer. That's simply the truth as far as I'm concerned right now. So let's give the Americans some credit for what they provide, and not make such a big fuss about some basic standards they use.

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Wow. all well said and thought through comments. I didn't read the comments in play here, so to that extent I can't direct an opinion.I can say, however, that throughout life we are all exposed to different cultures. And they may not always be a culure with a national flag. We all must deal with cultural norms and perspectives from folks with a different gender, race, economic status, etc. We do it every day, all day. Whether it's in the States, Canada, North America, Europe, or the world.We are all well versed in backing-up and doing a retake of the scene so as to not offend. And more often than not we all are eager to not offend and be undersdtood and forgiven. Even better if we try to gain insight into it, all politics aside.As a world community here, we all learn from each other. Mistakes will happen. I feel it's imperative that we all give and take here, forgive and forget. Why don't you hang around, Dutchman, and you'll add more to your experiences in life, as we do too. Our bonds as avsim enthusiasts will be stronger.Rick

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"I never really know what's objectionable to Americans and what is not. Most Europeans don't; although we are aware that American culture is much more uptight about these things"Gee-I had both German and French au pair girl live in my household each for a year and they seemed to feel the opposite-that things are much less uptight in the US.All I can say is if a post of mine got removed on any forum in any country or culture I would be doing some soul searching as to what I did to offend-and I'd probably be pretty upset with myself-but then I guess I'm one of those uptight Americans...http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

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I haven't done any travelling outside the continental U.S., so I can't speak to foreign attitudes on this subject. But I can say that the majority of Americans (at least the ones I know) would not be offended by something like this. But there are those that would be. And while I've never seen anything in the U.S. Constitution guaranteeing anyone the right not to be offended, some think that they have that right. Therefore, people like Tom and his folks that run these public forums have a difficult job. How do you practice freedom of speech without offending anyone, especially given that you don't know who's going to be offended by what? It's a tough job I wouldn't want, but they simply have to draw a line somewhere and then guard the line. There's no other way. Also, keep in mind that were this a guaranteed adult only forum, then the standards could probably be more relaxed. But its not. I've gotten notes from folks who's children actively participate in their hobby. I got one the other day from a gentleman and his 5 year old son. I've seen a number of posts here that I wouldn't want a 5 year old to see. The Avsim crew does a good job of catching most, but some get by. And even the ones that get caught are there for a period of time. Bottom line is that if we all practice common sense and realize that we are speaking to a very diverse community, and write our posts with that in mind, then there won't be any need to remove posts, and Tom will have a lot easier job.Mike Stone

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Mike you have a very good point,well explained too.RegardsRichard

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Geof,You can afford an au pair?Please adopt me. I'm reasonably clean and will live in my own place.Oh, and that's a really, really, nice new pic of you in your wonderful signature there.

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This reminds me of the old joke - stop me if you've heard it - An old lady calls in the police to complain about a man in the house opposite who removes his clothes in front of an open window.The cop looks out of the ladies' window, says "But you can't see the guys' window from here!"Lady replies, "Stand on the wardrobe! Stand on the Wardrobe!"

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