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JSACKS

Argghh! Crazy 360 turn commanded by FD after T/O !

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Last night I built a simplified flightplan for the 744, KIAD-EGLL. No SIDS or STARS, just hand inserted waypoints based on my knowledge of the airport, routing, etc. Anyway, first WP is RINKS 5.5nm dead ahead of the departure runway (1L) centerline, then a 40 deg turn to the right to RAYEE wp.Here's what happens 90% of the time: rotate at VR, positive climb, nail V2+10 and hold, then at 150-200' AGL, the pink FD roll bar tells me to start flying right and stays there commanding a 360 deg turn around KIAD and THEN heads to RINKS and thence RAYEE. This happens with hand flight and auto flight linked to LNAV.The exact same thing has happened with one other flightplan I built some time ago but the frequency of a rogue 360 deg turn with that departure is much less, maybe 25% of the time. I have not experienced this 360 deg turn command with any other flightplans in the Queen to date.Have I done something incorrect in building the flightplan or is this a glitch inside the FD/FMC or whatever ?Appreciate any troubleshooting tips, thanks!JonathanP.S. For what it's worth, this particular flight scenario was troublesome to edit and re-save when I built it. For e.g., on reloading, the LOGO light is usually off instead of on, the D-TO CLB is normally not set correctly in the FMC, and one or two other things need to be re-set. This has led to me wonder if the saved flight within FS2004 is possibly corrupted in some way. I have saved the flightplan itself within the FMC, separately from the saved flight scenario.


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Did you review the flight plan path using the LEGS page on the FMC and the PLN page on the ND? I'd recommend this for all flights.I have some SIDs available for KIAD that provide routing from runways to first DP fix. It's included in the Cycle 0710 Collection in the AVSIM library. You might try it.


Dan Downs KCRP

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Yes, I did. I wanted to check and ensure there was no inadvertent placement of a wp behind me or some such thing. Thanks for SIDs tip.I just reloaded the saved f/plan from the FMC dBase to see whether this would make any diff but it did not. Still get a 360 commanded shortly after liftoff. I then extended the rwy departure hdg to another fix an additional 5 nm down the route but that made no diff either. Still got a commanded 360 turn shortly after liftoff with that too.It's very perplexing. I might just scrap the files and rebuild everything from scratch, time consuming though this might be.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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I don't know if this is your problem, but I had the same thing happen to me, along with a host of other weird A/P behavior. After a lot of detective work, I figured out the problem.It was caused by an options setting in the PMDG menu. Make sure you have both boxes UNCHECKED for throttle and controls override in the AFDS section of the PMDG menu. I don't know why this caused this problem with the A/P, but it went away after these options were unchecked. It may have something to do with noisy inputs from our controllers.There were some other abnormal auto throttle and A/P pitch behaviors that my 747 was exhibiting that went away when I unchecked those two boxes. You may want to give it a try and see what happens.Kim


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Kim:Thanks for this idea. Unfortunately that is not them either. Generally the A/P works extremely well, indeed, uncommonly well for me. I think this is a glitch in the interaction of the add-on and the sim. It seems to have no rational explanation which would make it a perfect "just one of those FS things" type of situation.I took a break from FS9 with my 744 flight and parked the sim on the Windows taskbar for 2 hours and when I returned, presto! the departure worked a charm and the FD roll bar behaved exactly as it should. I then re-flew the departure shortly thereafter and the roll bar malfunctioned once again just as it has done on 18 out of 20 practice departures.I even rebuilt the flight from scratch and re-saved it all. Same rubbish all over again. I tried departing from runway 1R instead--same old cr@p! Anyway, I'm going to make an effort to drive myself mad over this although it is very annoying to do all the legwork and then find this is the result during a critical phase of the flight. It really is so typical of FS. I'll just switch to HDG SEL on departure instead of arming LNAV on the ground for this flight.Thanks for your post. Appreciated.Cheers,Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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To correct a terrible omission above:I am going to make an effort NOT to drive myself mad.....It's the "FS effect" at work !!Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Even though I am not using the PRYME 2 SID for this departure, I am wondering if there is some effect coming off the SID file or some such thing within the FMC that is just hidden from view. I had the same issue months ago departing LLBG until I changed the departure profile and then the FD rollbar behaved normally on departure. If it could be the KIAD SID file, what would I look for to edit out?Thanks.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Well, after trying every imaginable combination of waypoints and failing to get the FD bar to behave properly on climbout, I have resolved the KIAD 1L departure issue by deleting the first waypoint, RINKS, and substituting DOMSE which is about 4nm ahead of the end of 1R. It's a bearable compromise in the circumstances and I don't cross the azimuth to 1R until passing about 2000' so it's not a deal-breaker (in my informal FMC sim world!).Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Jonathan,The FMC must think the RINKS waypoint is behind the aircraft at some point and then changes it's mind halfway into the turn. Weird, something seems corrupted somewhere.I definitely had my 747 do exactly what your aircraft is doing at one time, only it happened flying out of KSEA and it was inconsistent in the way it responded to a close waypoint in front of me (I also had A/P pitch control problems as well at the time). I hadn't changed any software on my computer recently either.I finally got so frustrated at one point with the crazy A/P that I finally uninstalled and then reinstalled the aircraft and that's when I figured out the 'controls override' option problem (which I accidentally discovered when I set up all my options AFTER a first test flight that went OK). The waypoint problem also disappeared after that as well and the A/P has been behaving nicely since then for a change, no flight director anomalies anymore. So it probably was a combination of problems causing things to go strange.If you have a disk copy of your 747 software, you may want to try a reinstall if you're getting really irritated with the A/P behavior or just keep doing your waypoint workaround if you don't want to hassle it. Have you also checked the EICAS stat page and made sure your controls are in a neutral position before takeoff?Kim


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Kim:This is a fairly rare occurrence on my experience with the Queen. In general, she behaves well and the FMC works flawlessly as does the AP. The AP is extremely precise and fine most of the time. That said there obviously is some kind of corruption somewhere with something--but what? I do not know!I checked the override controls options and they are already set as you had suggested so that is not the problem, it would seem.This is a once in a while event for me so I don't feel it is worth uninstalling and reinstalling stuff. Also, I use the GoFlight advanced MCP which is totally fantastic and right-on. I shall stick with my workarounds like heading to a different waypoint on departure even though I'd probably get fined and fired by the FAA in real life for doing what I do!Thanks anyway for your posts.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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I usually check the EICAS STAT page before takeoff as well to ensure controls are centered/neutral and that STAB trim is correctly set too.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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One other question. Did you ever install the sound update for the Queen? I know that it caused me a corrupt 747 installation, twice. Many others have reported the same problems, so I gave up on installing it.How much trouble was it to set up the MCP Panel with the 747? I would love to get one of those and set up a dedicated cockpit. Getting tired of using the mouse to control the A/P.Kim


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I have the PMDG sound update for the 744. It is excellent. For reasons that escape me, I have always been fortunate that every update for everything in MSFS has always worked out well for me. Now that I've said that, it'll probably go bad on me....!The GoFlight MCP PRO was a piece of cake. It works as far as I recall out of the box. It also works with the PMDG 737NG (it is an NG design in fact) and with Level-D 767. However it shines best with the 744 and works in all modes just as BOEING designed it. You need to be sure that you have the GoFlight A18 drivers or later embedded in the PRO because if you have earlier drivers the device may not work perfectly for you. This was a problem for me with the first MCP PRO I received and GoFlight kindly exchanged it for me. I was very familiar with GoFlight having started with their hardware about 4-5 years ago so by the time the PRO arrived I had a pedestal crammed with their stuff and 1 large and 1 small tabletop panel of theirs too crammed with more of their stuff. The only reservation or caveat I have about the PRO is that you need to be a little deliberate and a little slower in turning the MCP dials because it can freeze up on you if you just spin them quick and try to race to a target value. I've learned therefore to turn a bit slower and more deliberately and it now works all the time without a hitch. Other than this, it works beautifully and is a trip to operate. It adds to a sense of immersion considerably.I've done three departures ex-KIAD 1L with my modified departure waypoints and the FD roll bar works normally. That's all I am doing; I'm a happy camper now. After liftoff, I engaged HDG SEL and at 500' AGL I hit LNAV and start to steer to the first waypoint normally (phew!). I'd be curious to know if anybody else has a problem with the FD roll bar departing KIAD 1L, hitting RINKS first and then RAYEE heading east to the SIE VOR.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Thanks for the information on the GoFlight MCP Pro and yes I DO want to use it for the 747, great!I'll try out your departure with my setup and see if the Queen does the same thing with me. I haven't been able to use my computer that FS9 is installed on for the last week, but I'll go flying this Friday and post back the results.Kim


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I finally tried out my Queen today and tried your departure from KIAD RWY 1L. She flew to the RINKS waypoint, then turned to RAYEE without a hitch, even with multiple flights. I even tried the PRYME 2 SID in another direction and had no problems. You must have some kind of corruption in your setup somewhere which may be causing your problem. If you don't want to reinstall, you can either try updating your navdata or just dump the RINKS and RAYEE waypoints from your flightplan and maybe put in CHATR instead, which will get you to the edge of controlled airspace for Dulles and the other surrounding airports before you have to make your turn. Good luck!Kim


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