Procedures and EHAM

[Guest Brian Jones]

HiCan anyone tell me how to programme procedures into the FMC on my 737NG-700? Specifically, Schiphol rwy 27? FMC programmes the ILS approach to 27 but doesn't include the last procedure turn, consequently I habe a steep dive from 7000 at SPL and can't make the approach.And while we're on Schiphol.. Does FS9 recognise the (relatively) new Polderbaan 180R/360L at EHAM? It didn't exist when FS9 came out and I now have Cloud9 add-on scenery for AMsterdam (excellent, BTW), where it does exist. The FMC programmes the rwy in but when I reach it it doesn't recognise the GS and flies over. Is that because FS9 still thinks it's 180C/360C?.I'm confused...Any tips, gratefully received.Thanks Brian Jones

[Guest pilot-joey]

About the first thing for ILS RWY 27, I recommend you to update your NAVDATA to the latest cycle as I have no problems at all with it. (Anyway, after SPL fly H-091 inbound PAM VOR, when overflying PAM Right Heading 140 for 1 minute, turn left onto the ILS RWY27!)For the second item the same, everything must work fine since Cloud9 Amsterdam Schiphol Scenery includes the 18R ILS, confirm you are not landing on the 36L since that is no landing runway!?To be sure: ILS RWY 18R, Frequency (NAV1) 110.10, Course: 184 and ILS Ident is VPB.Hope this helps out a bit.Best regards from the Netherlands and actually now heading to Amsterdam Schiphol :(.

[Guest Brian Jones]

Hi JoeyThanks for your reply. Well, I did update the AIRAC Navigraph data and I'm still getting the same. The FMC gives me a path to SPL and then to the WB NDB but then turns me back to the FAF EH639. It doesn't give me the procedure as printed on the official AIP Netherlands chart where, after WB, I make a one minute turn 141 degrees to the right and then turn around left to PAM VOR and thence onto my final APP. (Which incidentally is the opposite direction to the procedure you recommended...). I am flying in via the SUGOL transition BTW.I can insert the procedure turn you recommeneded manually, but I can't insert the official procedure manually nor does the AIRAC info give me that procedure turn in my FMC automatically...Best regards too from the Netherlands! I live in Haarlem very close to Schiphol and travel under the 180R/360L flight path every day!Cheers Brian

[downscc 1,327]

Trust me, a busy airport does not allow procedure turns.Typically, you are vectored to the final approach course and your IAF is the FAF. I don't have a copy of the chart in discussion, but many IAPs will have more than one IAF, some that don't require the procedure turn or hold pattern.The only time ATC expects you to fly a procedure turn is when you are cleared to the IAF that requires it and the clearance includes something like "as charted."An example is WINGBAT 775XRAY CLEARD DIRECT FUMBL FOR THE ILS23 APPROACH AS CHARTED, otherwise they will be giving you vectors to avoid the using-up-approach-airspace-for-five-minutes procedures.

[rocketfs 2]

"Trust me, a busy airport does not allow procedure turns."&"the only time ATC expects you to fly a procedure turn is when>you are cleared.... "That's besides the question sir. Any pilot should be able to fly any published approach.If -for some reason- the approach is problematic, it should be aborted and the crew will re-evaluate what to do next.by the way:- ATC can have a reason to request you to fly a procedural approach: (radar fail, ACFT transponder fail)- the pilot can have a good reason to fly the published approach: (comm fail)Best Regards,Bert Van Bulck

[downscc 1,327]

I agree, but navigraph doesn't include procedure turns in their approaches. Steve Bell provides custom procedures for the UK but I don't know offhand if he does procedure turns. I do include them in my 68 US locations that I upload every cycle in AVSIM (but I might be late this cycle - I got a late start because of the MD11 Beta).Regardless, the same logic that you mention holds that the pilot must be able to manually fly the approach as published without the computer doing it for him. Wouldn't you agree?You can modify your own procedures too, if you wish. Terry Yingling has an excellent tutorial at planepath.com

[KCA9304 0]

Brian,The procedures at EHAM, as published in the AIP,in this case, SPL FL70 - WP NDB 3000 - Procedure turn - WP NDB 2000 -Approach 27,are only for Comm. Failure purposes.Common practice is: Radar vectors to final approach.Regards,Harry

[Guest Brian Jones]

Thank you all for your replies. They were all illuminating. If I had looked more carefully at the charts I would indeed have seen that the procedures were to be excecuted if "comm fail".I have learnt something. Thank you for the lessons.Brian