Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
Guest hvanleusen

Manual Approach 2

Recommended Posts

Guest hvanleusen

Hi everyone, in addition to a former post, I would like to ask you for your opinion:1. DO you disconnect AP and AT at the same time?2. When is the best time to set flaps 30?3. Do you set flaps 30 before or after lowering gear?4. How do you compensate the loss of lift while lowering flaps on short final?Thanks for all the answers in the past, I learned a lot.CheersHans van Leusen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Hans,Most of my answers depend on the current situation, but here is a general overview of how I do it.DO you disconnect AP and AT at the same time?1. Yes, almost all the time, unless I want the AP to control my speed for some reason. This would most likely be when I'm a little too busy with an unexpected command from a text-only controller on VATSIM. Then I have to type back to him while I'm in the TCA, and that takes one more hand than I'm currently wearing at the time. :)When is the best time to set flaps 30?2. I normally have flaps 30 set by the middle marker, but I have set them sooner to help me slow down. The 767 is a very slick bird and hard to slow down, and I love the way the speed brakes are modeled. You can't just use them like an anchor and throw them out expecting them to let you do a 5000 fpm decent at 250 kts! :) You have to plan your vertical nav. as carefully as your lateral nav. in this bird (And the FMC makes that oh so easy!)Do you set flaps 30 before or after lowering gear? 3. Again, I use the gear to sometimes augment the speed brakes to slow me down. I will normally have the gear down before flaps 30 though.How do you compensate the loss of lift while lowering flaps on short final?4. Lowering the flaps will increase lift, but also increase drag. So there is not a loss of lift, but of airspeed. Now, most of the time, I'm using that last flap setting to slow me to my final approach speed and get a little extra lift. So if I time it right, I don't have to touch the throttle. But most of the time I'm adding a little throttle to compensate for the extra drag the flaps give.Regards,Steve Dra


Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my paints here at Avsim by clicking here

9Slp0L.jpg 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Iz

Goeiedag Hans,Well answering this from real world experience (did it yesterday),1. Yes.2. Flaps 30 should be set at least 500' above ground level (AGL) on the approach if you're visual, at least 1000' AGL when on an instrument approach in IMC conditions.3. Gear first, then the flaps. The standard combination is Gear Down, Flaps 20, then Flaps 30.4. Like the other guy said, extending flaps increases lift. However, going from Flaps 20 to 30 (25 not normally selected on a standard approach), adds more drag than lift. What I didn't like in his answer is that is seems he trotts down short final all the way to the ground at idle power. Get Flaps to 30 extended at 500' AGL at the latest! You'll need to add power but this is necessary also in case of a go around. If you have thrust at idle and need to go around, the engine's will take far too long to spool up to GA thrust.Iz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest hvanleusen

Steve, of course you are right, question number four (4.) was ment: ....on lowering gear..!Sorry, my mistakeCheersHans van Leusen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Lobaeux4

Agree 100% with Iz, you almost never, ever want to be at idle when on short final, or flair, especially in a jet, if you are you didn't setup your approach quite right. Well, except cessna's I guess. The ideal would be to be at idle at touchdown.Lobaeux

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Iz,When I'm at idle thrust, I'm not at "Ground idle", but "High idle" as required in the Delta POH for the 767. This setting allows an acceptable response time from idle to GA power if needed.I will usually be +10 vref before setting the last flap notch, and if I time it perfectly (and you can guess how many times I do that) :), I will be at vref just as I'm ready to flair. So if I'm not perfect (which is most of the time), I will be pushing up the throttle a bit to compensate for the slight sag the extra drag adds, which coincidentally will push the nose up to a perfect flair angle. :) But there are many times I'll have everything hanging into the wind several miles out, and have to push the throttle up considerably to maintain the proper glide path. This is not my preferred method, as it burns extra fuel. But sometimes when I'm flying under human control, it is necessary.I totally understand and support the rational to have power on landing and a long, stabilized approach...and would fly like that in the real world. But its fun (for me anyway) to try to execute an approach where you are hitting all the speeds and altitudes without having to touch the throttle. Not very practical in the real world (with vectors, altitude holds, dodging weather, etc) but good practice in case you ever had to do a emergency decent on idle power only (jammed throttle, fuel problems, etc.) :)Not having any real world experience, its hard to relate to how its done "out there". I just fly this marvelous panel as best as a layman can. ;) Regards,Steve Dra


Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my paints here at Avsim by clicking here

9Slp0L.jpg 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Regarding question 3, it also depends on speed restrictions in the terminal area. If you ever participate in a large flying to LHR, you'll typically get a speed restriction of 160 kts until 4 DME. In that case, you don't drop your landing flaps until then.Most of the time, though, I like to be in a full landing configuration by the outer marker.Jon (KSEA)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>speeds and altitudes without having to touch the throttle. I try to fly the approach as per the "book" and have hardly a need to adjust the throttle - it stays pretty much around 60% N1 through the whole approach (from OM).Michael J.


Michael J.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

In the real world:1. It is not necessary to disconnect the AT at the same time as the AP - pilot's choice. I generally leave the AT in until short final.2&3. Good practices for configuring the aircraft: - if on a straight in approach: a. at around 16 miles - 240 knots and select flaps 1, dial the speed back to Vref plus 60. b. at Vref(30) plus 70 - select flaps 5, dial the speed back to Vref plus 40. c. at 2000ft radio altimeter, select gear down, flaps 20, dial the speed back to Vref(30) plus 20. d. when the speed is back below 170 knots (flap 30 limit speed)select flaps 30, arm the speed brakes and dial the speed back to Vref(30) plus 5.If you are manouvering below 2000 feet, get yourself configured with flaps 5 at Vref(30) plus 40 before the glideslope begins coming down (alive). Once it is alive, select gear down , flaps 20, dial the speed back to Vref(30) plus 20. When the speed is back below 170 knots (flap 30 limit speed)select flaps 30, arm the speed brakes and dial the speed back to Vref(30) plus 5. You should be fully configured and on speed by 1000 feet at the latest so you won't need an answer to question 4!The idea in big airplanes is always to get configured early and fly as stabilized an approach as possible.Hope this helps. Happy flying!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest HPSOV

What this guy said :-)You should be stable, on glidelsope, with Vref+5 (plus any correction), engines spooled up to 60%, flaps 30 by 1000ft. If not in this configuration by 500ft GO-AROUND!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest hvanleusen

Good morning,great information, thanks. That reminds me of what someone (Eff Oh) wrote in PPRuNe:"At 50 hrs a pilot WISHES he knew it all. At 500 hrs a pilot THINKS he knows it all. At 5000 hrs a pilot realises he will NEVER know it all!!!!" Lets change pilot by simmer :-)Yesterday I made my first landing under gusting crosswind (9 to 19 kts) I could handle it a lot easier when lowering gear before landingflaps. Lots of questions left, ..with respect only one here:VIADIRECT: >... d. when the speed is back below 170 knots (flap 30 limit speed)select flaps 30, arm the speed brakes and dial the speed back to Vref(30) plus 5. ....< Do you mean: arm Autobrakes or use speedbrakes to reduce speed and lift??Thanks againGoeiedag and happy landings :-)Hans van Leusen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Claude troncy

Iz,Just would like to have a precision concerning point 1 ?Who disconnect AP and A/T at the same time ? The PF or the PNF ?merciClaude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Martin

>Do you mean: arm Autobrakes or use speedbrakes to reduce >speed and lift?? He means (sorry for stepping in ;-)) arm the speedbrakes, i.e. press Shift+/ so they will deploy automatically on landing. Speedbrakes should not be used in flight when the flaps are extended.Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Martin

Can you clarify something about the approach speed? I thought I had this pretty clear, but I'm not so sure anymore.My understanding is that the final approach speed (Vapp) should be landing reference speed (Vref) plus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest hvanleusen

Hi Martin,appreciate your good information in this ForumRegardsHans van Leusen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
  • Donation Goals

    AVSIM's 2020 Fundraising Goal

    Donate to our annual general fundraising goal. This donation keeps our doors open and providing you service 24 x 7 x 365. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. We reset this goal every new year for the following year's goal.


    2%
    $565.00 of $25,000.00 Donate Now
×
×
  • Create New...