Hello to all, Is anyone familiar with the Expressway Visual at KLGA? Can someone tell me how it

I thought the Expressway Visual was no more after 9-11.No matter, the 767 is not ideal for this approach as it is a pig-PIC.Not sure.Mike Bevington is an Expressway Visual expert in the PIC767, he can help.Rob.

"No matter, the 767 is not ideal for this approach as it is a pig-PIC."It doesn't frighten real pilots. I refer to simmers of course ... :-bla:-outta

Heheh....I said not ideal...not "impossible". Ya **-ah.

I've crashed and burned on this approach in my pic many times. In fact I've crashed and burned on virtually every visual approach in the New York area - usually in front of a crowd of vatsim controllers (explaining why I don't fly out there as often as I once did - heh)In all honesty though - this is a tough approach and when you take into account the fact that your visual cues and peripheral vision limits your abilities in the simulator - you just have to practice this approach over and over until you are able to nail it. It's really the same with all of the other great published visuals out there across the US - practice practice practice. Whether it's the Expressway (KLGA), the River Dance (KDCA), Freeway (KSNA), Four Stacks (KBUR), Stadium (KLAX), Tippy Toe (KSFO), or the Mill/Mall (KPDX/KSEA) Visuals - you have to practice them over and over to get them down. By the way the 4 stacks visual into Burbank has been known as the 3 stacks visual since Daryl Shuttleworth's last attempt at the approach. The word on the street is that the owners of the factory will be joining in a class action suit against CVA3339 along with Karl Malden, whose home was levelled after a particularly hot landing by 3339 into San Francisco about 18 months ago.Mike Bevington really is a pro at this approach - have seen him nail it many times - also Alex Bower (a non PIC flyer but a great flight simmer) has been witnessed nailing this one in his DC10-30er many times.

"By the way the 4 stacks visual into Burbank has been known as the 3 stacks visual since Daryl Shuttleworth's last attempt at the approach. The word on the street is that the owners of the factory will be joining in a class action suit against CVA3339 along with Karl Malden, whose home was levelled after a particularly hot landing by 3339 into San Francisco about 18 months ago.":-xxrotflmao

I'm getting way too much credit here, but since I am, I had better put up some kind of response. Yes, I have flown this approach many times in the sim, but I am far from being an expert. Unfortunately, along with a few bridges here and there, the tanks are missing in FS9. But that is not too big a problem because with a nav radio tuned to LGA, it is easy to find the proper approach course and locate the DIALS intersection. In the 767 this is a tough approach, night or day. A couple of my favorite approaches are both titled

Well its a lazy Sunday afternoon so I thought I'd fire PIC up and have a go at this approach myself. The first thing that strikes me is how tight the approach is, do 767's fly this in real life? It appears you will only just be aligned with the runway by 5-600ft which is the absolute minimum.In order to conduct an approach like this it is important to give yourself as much help as you can (you're going to need it), so the first consideration is to load something in the FMC that accurately represents what you'll fly. This gives you a VNAV profile, which if loaded correctly will represent a 3 degree profile. To build the approach I started with the LOC 31 approach as loaded in the FMC. From this I kept the runway, and the IPZ01 point, which conveniently appears to be a 2nm final. 150/0070 for the runway (as we want to cross the threshold at 50ft), and 150/0640 for IPZ01 (this is the altitude from the LOC approach, so it is on profile). Back from this we need a base point, which must lie on a 085 bearing from DIALS. a little trial and error (and copying Mr Bevington) shows that DIALS085/4.5 will give us a square base. 150/0960 is selected here, as it is a further 1nm from IPZ01. Behind this is DIALS, 170/2500 as per the chart requirement, but this is also very close to the 3 degree profile at DIALS. So approaching DIALS it should look something like this-http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35529.jpgYou'll see we're level at 2500ft, with flaps 5. The key to this, and indeed any visual approach is to give yourself as much time and space as possible, so that you're never rushed. Configuring at the correct point is critical to this, as being high or fast will make the approach virtually impossible. Select gear down and flaps 20 2nm prior to DIALS, and flaps 30 when the speed allows. The idea is that by 1500ft we are fully configured for landing, on speed, thrust set for approach, with correct rate of descent. Here is the picture at 1500ft-http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35530.jpgNow all there is left to worry about is the turn onto final. In real life I would most probably disconnect the autopilot prior to the turn, which would allow you to judge your bank angle through the turn by looking out the window at the runway. In PIC we must rely heavily on the map display for this, so I will leave the A/P engaged (I also dont have my joystick plugged in hehe). Remember it is perfectly acceptable to leave the A/P in until 500ft in this type of approach.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35531.jpgHere we are just commecing the turn onto final, as you can see the aircraft is stable, with LNAV and VNAV working perfectly.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35532.jpgMost of the way through the turn here, and the autopilot has just let us drop below profile slightly, with a rate of descent of around -900ft/min, a good reason for disconnecting prior to the turn. I have armed LOC to provide tracking guidance out of the turn.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35533.jpgLast shot and we were *almost* aligned by 500ft. However we are still stable and on profile, and will easily land off this approach. The rate of descent has dropped to -600ft/min as the autopilot regains profile, LOC has replaced LNAV as the active roll mode.Some points... the autothrottle mode during this approach appears to be 'IDLE' this must be a PIC fault, it should be SPD (it held the speed nicely, despite the mode annunciation). In real life the turn onto final would most likely be hand flown, using visual reference to judge rate. The flight directors may or may not be left on once the A/P is disconnected, depending on personal preference. It is worth noting how accurately the autopilot flew this approach, all it needs is the correct information loaded into the FMC, and it will do exactly as you tell it.

First attempt...http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35546.jpgfailed.... going aroundhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35547.jpgsecond attemphttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35548.jpgmuch better!!!http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35549.jpgnailed ithttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/35550.jpgbtw, has anyone noticed the extreme rudder sensitivity of the PIC767 in FS9(i'm talking to you, mr Bevington)btw, i only used FS9 because it has far superior ground textures making it easier... ;)greetz

HPSOV,Nice to see the AP handled it so well. I get a different answer every time I ask about real world ops at LGA relating to 767s flying the Expressway Visual. I can't answer that question for certain but I have had a couple people tell me that on some occasions they do. It is nice to see you agree with the elements of the approach. There is little to no room for error on this approach for sure.Lenny,I can confirm that PIC does have a rudder spiking issue in FS9. I compensate is by using smaller/shorter applications and brief twiches of the rudder pedals rather than steady amounts of throw.(edit) If you change XP to use classic style windows and change the color to a dark brown, those window frames are a lot easer to look at.Mike

thanks mike, will try that :)

Guys I'm a New York City boy, Brooklyn to be exact. I live in between KJFK and KLGA, so I've been flying out of and into both airports. Let me say this now, any plane that flies into KLGA, flies the Expressway Visual. How do I know you ask, many times sitting on the Grand Central Pkwy in traffic trying to get on the LIE and what's that you say is flying ahead, oh a Dash-8, now here comes a 757, a damn here comes a hefty 767, now the Airbus. I think that it's the best approach into any NY airport, except for the VOR 13L/R approach......a must to fly on, it's the best. I've yet to come home into KLGA on the Expressway Visual, but the River Visual isn't no joke either. On both approach, let's say that if the windows are open you can take some food from a rooftop BBQ :-) that's how low you're coming in. Damn I love NY so much.....

Well, I'm here to say that neither of those approaches is for the faint hearted - though the 13 is a little easier to line up for (grin). I crashed and burned on several attempts to 31... the Mets will never be the same.Man, I would love to see some shots of the turn to final - you gotta be at about 1000 feet or less...DS CVA3339 / UKD149System: Attlon 900 McW Hamster/Gerbilized Quantum Accessible 55Gig Iodized-Encrusted Four-poster with Mega-brill Farzenhuuven http://vatsim.pilotmedia.fi/statusindicato...tor=OD1&a=a.jpg

A little food for thought guys. I just finished practicing the Expressway Visual in a PIC/Posky 763 and I landed it perfectly; let me stop just made a few minor changes, and I do mean a few......2 to be exact. What I realized is that looking how they do it in real life (follow the LIE, with it sorta directly under you), I had to make my turn to 085 a little before crossing dials; about 0.8-1.0 inbound. Once the autopilot flattens out at 085, everything is off and then I handle it from there. Try it out guys and see if it helps.

I also like to mention on what somebody said about the tanks being missing in FS9.....it's totally accurate. Here in Brooklyn, they day they dropped those tanks was something else. A lot of people used it as a visual cue to find out where they are in; I did a few times. But yes, in real life the Maspeth Tanks are no more....only remains are the beams with the red light that use to be around it.