The Wilco A320...

[Tabs 2,790]

"The whole package is a joke", yet none of us have seen more than a few low resolution beta screenshots... hmmm. I for one am going to bet that the Airbus-style flight modeling and fly by wire characteristics in A320PIC are going to be very well done and will eclipse the PSS implementation of things like the autotrim and alpha floor protections... So the VC doesn't look 100% dead on with repsect to the blue color - remember here they're pioneering the clickable VC - like it or not (I for one love it) this is the future of FS - it's already been stated that FS2004 will NOT support 2D instrument panels. Even a not 100% color corrected VC that's clickable and allows you to pan and move with ease is going to feel a ton more immersive than a 100% photo 2D panel - the perpectives you get from the VC in addition to being able to manipulate it all are IMO going to push simming further toward total immersion.

[michal 44]

>And then I'm one who actually likes the majority of FLY >panels but not all. I prefer there "crispness" of lines, and >3D effect of corner shots of the 2D panel. Same here. I find nothing wrong with the FLY panels. They look like someone had put a LOT of effort in their creation. And that usually means pretty good results. :-)Michael J.

[greggerm 312]

And people wonder why commercial FS development and freeware FS development is on the decline....A company cannot even show it's progress on a new product without being slammed. Why any of you developers do it is beyond me... but thanks for all the hard work!

[michal 44]

>Frankly, whether Wilco or anyone else, I would not be so >quick to criticize something that is still "beta". >Many make the mistake of thinking that a beta is a "release >candidate", it is not, far from it. Lou,Points well taken. However if I were Wilco I would not have released something obviously so crude to public consumption. Once they decided to make it public they should be prepared to face criticism. Period.I have seen many examples of "work-in-progress" from DF, from TRI, from Eurowings and from other developers. They obviously looked like unfinished work with gauges missing, wrong colors, etc but looking "through" it you could get a fair glimpse of the future quality. I am looking "through" Wilco's screenshots and unfortunately I don't see this future quality. But like I said, it can change - even tomorrow. Regards,Michael J.

[Guest jase439]

Actually, PIC pretty much worked as advertised straight out of the box - so no, there wasn't alot of flaming.As for DreamFleet...maybe you should spend some time in their forums more. If you truly believe they went flame-free on the 737, you must have your head 10 feet in the sand. I'm surprised Lou doesn't put his own head in the sand after reading your comments!J

[Francois_Dumas 10]

.... and I am sure there is an English version of it, being a sea-going nation as well, but it doesn't spring to mind right now.Translated, our saying is something like "...... the world's best captains are always on shore....."Meaning that the people who seem to know everything best, are the least actively involved in what they are critizising ;-)I think one should wait for a final commercial (or freeware) release, loaded onto ones machine, and tested properly, before going off on a tangent and spilling a lot of angry words over any product.Any product deserves a fair chance. If it is rubbish, we can say so after actually seeing and testing it. Saying so without knowing the facts is just plain rude and certainly does not improve the credibility of the 'critic'. ;-) :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest DreamFleet]

Well said, Francois. :-)When MS released FS2002 to the beta testers, they were releasing it to very experienced individuals (many of whom were FS developers) who knew exactly what to expect. Documentation told us what we needed to know, and we did not go "ape" over things like floating trees. We knew that we were seeing a work-in-progress. Apparently Wilco is not being afforded that courtesy. Why this is so I am unsure, as those taking shots at the project are trying to come across as though they know something. I've flown on my share of Airbus aircraft, and have spent some time in the cockpits of them, often crawling around and taking photos. When I see the Wilco previews I know what I am looking at, a work in progress. I would not be so quick to put it down. Now, when a group like ours (DreamFleet) previews a product, we realize that we are not doing this with "experts" who know what to expect in a beta. Thus, we hold it off until it is at very advanced stages. Even then, and as we are experiencing with our Cardinal, and did with our Archer and 737, the product gets nit picked to death. The idea being that we should somehow be expected to provide a "real" aircraft, which is simply not possible within the constraints of FS. With little doubt, Wilco has more "guts" than us, and is previewing the Airbus at an earlier stage to the public.I've seen Wilco's previews of their Airbus, and considering the fact that it is a beta, I do not know what all this fuss is about. It's a beta, and based on what they are promoting, I would not be so quick to put it down based on what you are seeing in previews.All those who have sat down and chatted at length with the two brothers who own Wilco, raise your hands.Anyone?Could someone at least give me their last names?What country do they live in?Just what I thought. My arm is getting tired.;-)We should expect better from the FS community. Then again, I know what we go through with our products, so this all comes as no surprise.Or as Francois said:"people who seem to know everything best, are the least actively involved in what they are critizising" Oh, why am I sticking up for Wilco? I certainly have nothing to gain by doing this.1. Because of that offensive "contempt" remark made earlier. 2. Because our development group, or any other, could be the next subject of such a misinformed public attack. I've seen this before.No developer is perfect, whether freeware or commercial, and every developer is owed the common courtesy of having their product judged AFTER it is released.There are real people working their tails off on that Wilco Airbus. You can be certain that they are doing the best that is practical for them to do. They are, afterall, and contrary to what some may think, talented individuals who mean well, are trying hard, and have ZERO "contempt" for anyone.Considering how small the market is for commercial FS add-ons, they are certainly not doing this Airbus for the money.My compliments to the development team for the effort they are making. I know just how hard this work is.Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F..._FORUM_LOUd.jpg

[Guest]

For your information, I too was a beta tester on FS2002, you forget to mention there was a document called Non disclosure.Perhaps it should be said Wilco have been brave in releasing those screenshots but to not expect comment ? Perhaps as your chummy with them, you might have a word about the appaling service they have offered in the past.It still reminds me of the Emperor

[Guest Skedflyer]

I'm sorry but if Wilco has allot of work to do on their panel & plane, they should of held off the Screen shot until they could of clean up the model a little. This only leaves them open to criticism, in there mind they many have a different out come but 90% of payware dose not release shots that needs that much work, to save themselves the pain of this problem. Now I do realize that the work done on these commercial projects, allot of blood sweat and tears, but $30 or what ever price a developer asks for is still a product you offer for a price to the market for a monetary return. So if some customers have complaints it is within their rights to complain. About 10% of your complaints will actually complain no madder how good or bad the product is (these people are just natural complainers) another 30% will complain about issues, but generally will handle it in good nature compared to the previous 10%. And 60% will not complain at all. This dose not change the fact that if people want to complain about products they buy or looking to buy, they have the RIGHT to. 30$ maybe chicken scratch to some, but asked the guy flight training for his commercial at my near by flying club, who has to save 3 months to even be able to consider buy a product like that. I understand you may get allot of S&*T for the work you do, but (not directed at freeware, they don't deserve any s&%t from people) trying to make people feel bad because you don't get enough money to take some negative comments (warranted that some complaints are out of line), only make the company look bad. Sorry Lou, I'm not trying to attack you, I'm sure that your a great guy, but i feel your post was unwarranted ( just my opinion and I

[Francois_Dumas 10]

.... there is a small market out there and economics are driving these companies in the first place. People are making a living out of it to some extent. That means that now well proven (Microsoft) market tactics are valid.. i.e. announce products prematurely so consumers will perhaps hold off other purchases.Whether this is right or wrong, and whether it is smart or not, is another discussion, I will not go into that. Just stating a marketing fact, and the obvious resulting fact that because of the above, one needs to take such announcements with a few pinches of salt. Nothing to get all worked up about.The other things is, that yes, we have a RIGHT to utter criticism. I also have the RIGHT of way when coming from the right on equal roads, when driving my car. That does not mean that I am willingly am going to torpedoe the poor sod coming from the left that doesn't see me coming... ;-) To have a right and to actually take it at all accounts are two different things.Sometimes it is just polite and common decency to not excercise all the rights one has, but be patient a bit and speak up when it really counts. Just my opinion of course, probably old fashioned in this modern day and age, but I live on with it ;-)Edited for a myriad of typos again... :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest]

Francois, I'm impressed, well said.George

[Guest]

Slow down you lot. There is a fine line between bashing and offering an opinion. These pictures are all over the Wilco website so they have been published so that people can see what is in the pipeline. I personally have a lot of respect for all developers out there whether I like their product or not, payware or freeware. I don't like the screenshots of the Wilco A320 and that is simply my opinion, not a case of bashing. If I have a difference of opinion when it is released I will be equally quick to come onto here and say how great I think it is.Keep up the good work developers :-wave

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

Guys:If I were Wilco and had put shots like that, I would expect a civilized feedback, via E-mail. Not this PUBLIC BASHING. From people who haven't even tried the product. A product which is still a BETA. You know, what's funny is all these people are bashing it, but as has happened before, like 70% of them end up buying or pirating it. :-lol People, put the panties back on, and wait. If you don't like it, don't follow its progress. But no... Let's patiently scan the site for more shots to bash. Honestly, no wonder so many developers are closing or going payware. This is troll behavior, and it's sad so many people behave this way. Plus, let alone at one stage it was not about the A320, but about Wilco. Bashing Wilco. People, gow up. :-rollSincerely,http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d68c1fb7d97da8c.jpgAA RULES!!! :)Download my semi-photoreal AA 757!:http://ftp.avsim.com/library/sendfile.php?DownloadID=16882Aerolineas Argentinas A330-200 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR.../posky332ar.zipChrome AA 767 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR...osky767aaV1.zipDominicana de Aviacion 727-53C NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyRepaints/dom722.zip______________________________"Whenever you find yourself in the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

[Guest Skedflyer]

Very well put Francois. Just remember I do have respect for every contributor ( Lou include ) to FS community, free or not. Just i remember that people express there opinion in a nasty way, they only make themselves look bad. But it is still a business. And buck up this community is only getting bigger, and thanks to the efforts of some successful or not, the hobby just gets better.Also when i say RIGHT i mean in the sence of still repecting others rights in the process. I repect you opinion of my comment TY

[Guest Toni Rauch]

<...I also have the RIGHT of way when coming from the right on equal roads, when driving my car. That does not mean that I am willingly am going to torpedoe the poor sod coming from the left that doesn't see me coming...>At least in the U.K. we know what side of the road to drive on..... ;) "VIVE L'ANGLETERRE" - and keep left!!!Toni.(Just a little light relief to a seriously 'heavy' thread...;(8 )