Excellent point. For ME, it costs -way- too much. For Me I don't think it's worth it. For me theres no way I'd spend that much money (~$800) on some software that does what PM does. To me theres just no justification for it. Maybe if I got five star service, updates all the time, free 24/7 support, onsite service, maybe I could see where the $800 would be justified. But it's like any other software that you buy on the internet. You pay for it, you get a code, and you use it, and you email/post for support.I'm sure there are plenty of people that feel the same way about it. For those of you that bought it when it was around $100, congrats on not getting ripped off. I wish I would have had the sense to buy it back then like you guys did. :-) So yeah! I'm jealous!! THERE I SAID IT!!! :-P hahaIt's all fun and games guys. But I think we can all agree to disagree on this one and still all be friends. :-D

Hi George!This is my first post here although with my friend we are just in process getting hardware from Flightdeck solutions to build A320 cockpit.I am a programmer also for medics in my real world, I come from Slovenia and we have market of let's say 1500 doctor, maybe more. We have dentistry software and have only about 25% share on our market. But we invest a lot of time to develop software, we are currently reprogramming the software but still our medical insurance company gives us a plenty of work; we are only 3 programmers. I can't say our software is cheap; for the installation, 1 year guarantee, 5-6hrs of initial course we have a price for approx 1000 EUR. If YOu look from the client's perspective, which we are in case of PM, it is a lot. If I look from programmer's perspective, it's very cheap. But we can't lower the prices because of the market. The market is simply to small and the profit from annual subscripton and few software sold per year are barely enough to cover our company's expenses (I am looking over the year).If we could sell let's say 10000 pieces of the software, then we can:1. have more money and higher salaries if the price could stay the same2. the software could be a lot cheaper and the rest will stay the same.So please, don't compare Microsoft to Project magenta. My wild guess is that PM has been sold in quantity of not more than 1000 pieces, they do invest also quite some spare time for development and so on. If the market would be 100% bigger, the prices could be lower, of course. If everyone on this forum (complete Avsim!) would by the software, then the price would be lower. But only a few guys, who:1. have money for building some cockpit, 2. have place to have n-computers to put PM software on it,3. have a lot of enthusiasm to get into this so deep so they will build some cockpitwill buy the software. After all it is specialized software for small market. But at the end, I do agree, that 50% increase is way to much and getting to such amount of increase should be over larger period.So again, You have to look at both perspectives, from the developers side and from the client's one. And if You would like to know my opinion, I would say it was a lot of money even before, 600 USD for the whole set for A320 cockpit is a lot, but still, the market is too small.With best regards,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net

What has to be realized is that our hobby has tottaly evolved over the past few years.Our home simulators are now better then what the airlines pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for. Do you think this has gone unnoticed by them? Of course not. FlightDeck solutions, Project Magenta to name just a few are now being called upon by the airlines and proffessional flight training companies to build training devices at a quarter of the price of a company like wicat. Although expensive to those of us who dont have a bottomless pocket the raise in price is justified.Gary

>not. FlightDeck solutions, Project Magenta to name just a few>are now being called upon by the airlines and proffessional>flight training companies to build training devices at a>quarter of the price of a company like wicat. >>Although expensive to those of us who dont have a bottomless>pocket the raise in price is justified.Do you really believe FDS and PM would charge Delta, Northwest, or whoever the same price they charge us?Do you really believe they would make a perfect (say for example) NG system replica for less then 1000$ for an airline?bullscit.They would charge thousands of thousands of dollars and still be competitive against the full scale simulator builders.Anyway what must be looked at is the product selling system, the commercial plan.In my opinion PM's is totally screwed.Enrico spent lots of time initially developing his software and had to recover the money-time spent.He put the software on the market at some price.Since there was no other option, the majority of people in the need for this software bought it.The commercial licence for PM is this: you buy once and have suppport and upgradres forever.Now can't you image how self-destructing this commercial plan is?As time goes by the support base (people who have already bought the software) grows bigger and bigger while potential customers diminish (the rate of new home-cockpit builders is rather low).Now where the helll would you take the money from?Only choice is squeezing new customers by increasing the price.And this is a self-sustaining process.A system like X-Plane would be much better: you pay a decent price for the sim, each new main version (v8 v9 v10 etc) requires a new subscription, with discounts for previous customers.But again this would need the software to be somewhat a complete product which PM soft isn't at all.I think this is where PM's problem is, and that's why they always keep increasing price.At some time in the lifespan of a product a price drop is natural (at least in relation to the inflation, meaning it doesn't get increased) as the developing costs get ammortized; this has never happened with PM.And please don't throw in commercial software: commercial softwares come with complitely different warranties (in terms of security, production, support, etc) and are meant to make money.They are meant to work.They are not meant to play, please keep this in mind.For as simple as a program can be, if it is made to do a serious job (as surgery scheduling), it's worth all the money it costs.You're right saying it's no more then a database and some interacting routines.But it's what it's made to do that determines it's cost, not how complex it is.PMDG NG for example (or the PSS Concorde and A320, or Flight1 ATR72, or even the free Russians and MD80s) are complex peaces of software, maybe even more complex as they work together with FS, sharing the same memory and cpu, and need to do the same work of PM without hogging the system so much.Then why do they cost so much less?Have you ever thought that could you take apart that 70% of the code of the PMDG 737NG or PSS's 777 and 747 you would just have PM software?For a real fraction of the cost?Then are PMDG,PSS,Flight1 (and all the rest) stupid?I thinK that the real stupid are those ready to spend HOWEVER MUCH DOES IT TAKE to build that damned pit.The very simple fact you have money, because you have a nice rewarded job, doesn't entitle you to waste it like that.If you really feel your money isn't worth even a second thought, then you better give it away to somebody/something in more need then you.My opinion.

Well said!!:-beerchug:-)

I think you kids need to go back to school, a little lesson in economics might help. And while you're at it, seek a psychologist and get some therapy to deal with all that displaced anger. Quit bringing it here.

>And please don't throw in commercial software: commercial>softwares come with complitely different warranties (in terms>of security, production, support, etc) and are meant to make>money.>They are meant to work.I think you have a bit too rosy view of commercial software :) Sure, there are gems out there, but there's a lot of cruft too. And read the EULAs, they disclaim pretty much everything you can imagine.. >PMDG NG for example (or the PSS Concorde and A320, or Flight1>ATR72, or even the free Russians and MD80s) are complex peaces>of software, maybe even more complex as they work together>with FS, sharing the same memory and cpu, and need to do the>same work of PM without hogging the system so much.>Then why do they cost so much less?>Have you ever thought that could you take apart that 70% of>the code of the PMDG 737NG or PSS's 777 and 747 you would just>have PM software?>For a real fraction of the cost?Because the userbase of sim enthusiasts who want to buy a really nice add-on plane to add more realism is about a thousand times larger than the number of people who build home cockpits. They sell at least ten times more, so they get the same total profit when the price is ten times less. PM is very useful for those people who want to create a home cockpit, it is just expensive because the number of people in this hobby is so small. Dont use it if you dont like it. Sure we'd want everything as cheap as possible, but the decision is Enrico's, not ours.Seriously, this is getting offtopic here :/ I much rather discuss your own projects here than see personal enemies develop for the most stupid reason ever. We can agree to disagree on this, we dont have to scream at each other because of that. //Tuomas

>I think you have a bit too rosy view of commercial software :)>Sure, there are gems out there, but there's a lot of cruft>too. And read the EULAs, they disclaim pretty much everything>you can imagine.. Well yeah i was being rather general in my speech.As for every aspect of our life people seeking only personal gains exist.But you can't cancel the fact that this PM software is meant to play and not to work.Regardless of how much onest anybody is, there is a difference between play and work.I still think that the fact that those building cockpits are ready to spend all of their monthly income (at least once a year) so easily is disturbing.And it's not that i am mad, it's because i've been grown up in a different culture then pure capitalism and i regard other things as more valuable then pure personal money gains.>Because the userbase of sim enthusiasts who want to buy a>really nice add-on plane to add more realism is about a>thousand times larger than the number of people who build home>cockpits. They sell at least ten times more, so they get the>same total profit when the price is ten times less. PM is very>useful for those people who want to create a home cockpit, it>is just expensive because the number of people in this hobby>is so small. Dont use it if you dont like it. Sure we'd want>everything as cheap as possible, but the decision is Enrico's,>not ours.Sure but should you, producer of a software, want to increas the userbase, what weapons do you have?Surely the price.You see: software developers of commercial packages number 1 in their categories charge a lot of money and you can surely say they could not as the R&D expanses have already been repayed, and lowering the price would increase the user base.But, in markets of millions where the majority of the customers are industries, what do you perceive as the correct price?Kinetix and Autocad sell their software at thousands of dollars, but they sell to industries, then with those softwares make millions of dollars.Say for example Pixar animation studio.Then i am presented with a piece of software meant only to be played, sold to single entity customers (people) to enjoy flightsimming, and how much is it priced?Half the italian medium monthly income??????You're crazy...>Seriously, this is getting offtopic here :/ I much rather>discuss your own projects here than see personal enemies>develop for the most stupid reason ever. We can agree to>disagree on this, we dont have to scream at each other because>of that. Yes, but in the end it boils to cultural differencies: somebody regarding money more then somebody else.People should look around themselves for differencies to increase their knowledge, but that's seldom the case.I just wanted to say mine, as because next time the $ will be rated more then the

>I think you kids need to go back to school, a little lesson>in economics might help. And while you're at it, seek a>psychologist and get some therapy to deal with all that>displaced anger. Quit bringing it here.My personal therapist as never had to say anything about my principles nor about any "displaced anger".My problems have been others.Maybe i should go to some therapist you can advice to me?Oh and by the way: i hate economics since it reduces people to things.Maybe i should go back to university, but i would always choose engineering rather then anything else.Best regards.

Claudio,I am following this thread since the begin and had no intention to get involved in. But reading you, I must just say that I am deply impressed by your arguments and the "light" you are spreading here compared to the one trying always to justify all the excess of some companies involved in our hobby. You do not need to see any therapist, Claudio, dont worry about that. I cant say the same for some others here, although I am convinced that a therapist would not be for any help to them. My best regardsRoger

Aaahhhh, may be there is a group therapy discount plan, since now the list is adding up. Glad you can join the club Roger.Final word(s) on this subject from me, otherwise I MAY start to enjoy this.As far as I'm concerned; Enricho, Peter C, and all the others that have been BASHED in this forum, for the so called overcharging of there products. They have the RIGHT to charge what ever they want!!! AND!! You have the right, NOT to buy there products. Trust me, people WILL continue to buy there products, until somebody else comes along with the same product (quality) at a reduced price.If you know of a similar product at a reduced price, PLEASE broadcast it here. I would appreciate that, as anyone else would. Otherwise, you're blowing hot air.I admire the builders, here, at this forum, that make panels, switches, throttles, and etc, etc, etc, from scratch. I'm amazed of the talent that is here. I TRUELY ADMIRE them, for they are much more talented then I am. I'm fortunate enough to be able to find a producers/developers of products and able to pay for them. But I guarantee you, if I didn't have the funds, I would learn to build my own parts. AND, I would not be complaining of products being priced to high, particularly here.You guys are stuck in a rut, and I don't think you know how to get out of it. I was hoping to enlighten you and get you off of this nasty Bandwagon, then get back to building your Sims. I failed!I'm going to fly my sim now......:)

"Do you really believe FDS and PM would charge Delta, Northwest, or whoever the same price they charge us?Do you really believe they would make a perfect (say for example) NG system replica for less then 1000$ for an airline?bullscit"You know Matt, based on the above quote alone you would think that some would appreciate the price we pay. Great software, no doubt about it.Gary

Not wanting to take sides in this arguement, it is heated enough as it is, but those in England can save over 10% on the price of the basic Boeing suite from PM by buying in Dollars from CSI as opposed to buying in Euros from PM. Just used Travelex currency converter to compare prices. Basic Boeing suite on CSI site is $622, that is

>As far as I'm concerned; Enricho, Peter C, and all the others>that have been BASHED in this forum, for the so called>overcharging of there products. They have the RIGHT to charge>what ever they want!!! AND!! You have the right, NOT to buy>there products. Trust me, people WILL continue to buy there>products, until somebody else comes along with the same>product (quality) at a reduced price.That's exactly why ADSL in Italy costs twice as in France, or SMS cost 0.15

>"Do you really believe FDS and PM would charge Delta,>Northwest, or whoever the same price they charge us?>Do you really believe they would make a perfect (say for>example) NG system replica for less then 1000$ for an>airline?>bullscit">>You know Matt, based on the above quote alone you would think>that some would appreciate the price we pay. Great software,>no doubt about it.Are you so naive to even dream we have the same thing a real airline would PRETEND for what they pay?Come on, ours is a toy.And we pay more then for a computer with a licence for Windows for it...I still don't get it, maybe it's just me that's limited :(Computer 500$ (or even less)Windows XP Pro 160$Microsoft FS9 120$Ati Radeon 9600 100$Project Magenta Boeing/Airbus suite 800$...It's stronger then me: i just can't get down to reason with this :(