You can see all the current and future builds in this PPS filehttp://www.broadwaycomputer.de/rosmalen.ppsTwo leters from members of this list are featured in the Loveletter section of the presentation.Themis

But what does it all mean to us builders.I've used FSBus for 2 years now (classic). I am in a quandry as to whether to build the NG or go to IO cards (If I can find a way to make doublesided pcbs).David

Hi David,I'm in the same situation as you, and about to rebuild my cockpit.So I had to make that decision too. I decided to stay with a combination of FSBus Classic and FSBusNG.Here's my thoughts that helped me decide.IOCards use double sided PCBs which are more expensive to produce, but that's not the major concern since you can buy them ready from www.opencockpits.com at very reasonable prices.My main concern was that the connection between the MasterCard and other expansion cards (Displays, Servos etc) is done via 40pin idecable which takes a LOT of room and cannot be long. Also, the designs are quite complex and very difficult to make custom PCBs from the schematics.On the other hand, FSBus needs just 9 wires, i.e. a serial cable, to connect the various expansion boards to the COM card. That cable can be up to 10m long without problems.FSBus schematics are easily adapted to custom PCBs and only require small space (except the new IOModule).Personally I want to intergrade the display controllers on the same board as the displays to avoid unneeded wiring that take up too much space and make maintenance or expansion difficult.The FSBus software is currently much more user friendly and easy to setup. It has its limitations but I'm used to them over those years.IOCards use the very powerful SIOC but needs extra reading and time.Just my thoughts though.George DorkofikisAthens, Hellashttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/811520/1704.png

Hello !Only some extra information :1) For connect Master Card to Display Card only need 11 wires + 2 of power suply. The connection of main IOCards is USB port.2) You have a service for buy PCbs, kits or mounted cards with low prices.3) IOCards has two software: a) IOCard basic software. Easy for novice users and can be used with normal aplications in FSimulators :( SIOC, a powerful system for advanced users. Regards, Manuel V

Hi George!I'm sorry but I do not agree with you.>My main concern was that the connection between the MasterCard>and other expansion cards (Displays, Servos etc) is done via>40pin idecable which takes a LOT of room and cannot be long. >Also, the designs are quite complex and very difficult to make>custom PCBs from the schematics.The 40 pin cable is only used between a display controller and the mastercard or a break out box and the master card. If your cockpit is that big that you need to span some meters you would use a central usb expansion board and up to 4 master cards. For instance 1 master card in your Pedestal, 1 in your Overhead, 1 in your MIP, ..The Master Card is connected to the USB expansion board via a standard 25 pin 1-1 datacable that is shielded and will not introduce problems with signal loss. For even very big home flightdesks this is perfect.>The FSBus software is currently much more user friendly and>easy to setup. It has its limitations but I'm used to them>over those years.>IOCards use the very powerful SIOC but needs extra reading and>time.The presentation and the documentation of SIOC could be improved I agree, but in the core, the system is as simple as can be. If you start, forget about the IOCP protocol and running over multiple computers. Start with the basics. One should understand that one only needs a text editor, a sioc config compiler and the sioc program and you are up and running. Even novice users I'd recommend to use SIOC and not basic IOCards. Ofcourse one needs to have a basic notion of programming, but if you have not, I'd recommend not to build a cockpit at all... ;-)In SIOC you can do very basic things, like reading from FSUIPC offsets, reading the state of a hwardware switch and controlling lights.Here's the example of Level-D's Master Switch, Warning Light and Caution Light.Var 4200, name Master, Link IOCARD_SW, Input 5, Type P { &FO_Master = CHANGEBIT 0, &Master}Var 4299, name FO_master, Link FSUIPC_OUT, Offset $8B16, Length 1 Var 4100, name FI_WarCau, Link FSUIPC_IN, Offset $8BBD, Length 1 { &O_Warning = TESTBIT &FI_WarCau, 0 &O_Caution = TESTBIT &FI_WarCau, 1}Var 4180, name O_Warning, Link IOCARD_OUT, Output 21 Var 4181, name O_Caution, Link IOCARD_OUT, Output 22 But on top of that you can add logic and do more complex things like controlling a 7-segment display exactly the way you want to (including dimming) but also simulating aircraft systems (like PMSystems).Furthermore:SIOC code can be developed by every end user and shared...In my humble opinion the only reason for staying with FSBUS is to protect your investment in hardware, that's a good argument. But if you have to start from scratch I'd recommend Opencockpits cards + SIOC.Ofcourse this will change over time, like the AMD/Intel competion. But today that's my advice.My 2 cts. Best regards,Nicowww.nicokaan.nl

My english is to bad to write a lot , sorry.Soy de Argentina y me decidi por FSBUS primero por su dise

Perdona Alberto. Pero lo que dices no es verdad.Los dise

Thank you for your advise Nico.Much appreciated.The advantage of FSBus electronics (for the time being) is that I can easily adapt the controllers into my own PCBs. So I will only need 1 serial cable to run from the PC to the Pedestal where the COM board will be, one serial cable to the MCP and one serial cable to the overhead.That's it. Even within the modules (MCP, Pedestal etc) there will be no loose wiring as everything will be on the same single PCB. Even the backlighting. That means less cost for me.Another advantage is that the microcontrollers of FSBus are programmed through the same circuits. If not mistaken, I need extra flash PCB to be able to flash the microcontrollers of IOCards. I know I can order them pre-programmed, but it's cheaper for me to buy them here. And what if I want to change the programming, or a new firmware is released?The extra flash circuit is one more expense I can avoid.If there is any way to avoid this, please let me know.George DorkofikisAthens, Hellashttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/811520/1704.png

George,>If not mistaken, I need>extra flash PCB to be able to flash the microcontrollers of>IOCards. I know I can order them pre-programmed, but it's>cheaper for me to buy them here. And what if I want to change>the programming, or a new firmware is released?>The extra flash circuit is one more expense I can avoid.>If there is any way to avoid this, please let me know.New firmware is not released quite often, maybe once in 2 years and I curtainly would not want to change the firmware myself. ;-)Yes, you need a microcontroller programming device for flashing. You can buy a stand alone one yourselves, many electronics hobbyists actually have one, but it's cheaper to buy a new pre-programmed micro controller chip via OpenCockpits. For the DisplayII card it costs only 9 Euro a piece, so what are we talking about?There are other harware arguments that are in favor of IOCards. They only need 5V power supply, which can easily be taken from a free Molex connector from your PC Power supply. So there's not a separate +9V powersupply needed as it is with FSBUS. IOCards has a modern USB interface, while FSBUS still utilizes a COM interface, which is an interface that you soon will be missing in modern PC's...But again, for me the software is the decisive factor, and SIOC is much more powerful at the moment then FSBUS. But competion is good, so I'm glad that Dirk is moving in the right direction. ;-)Nicowww.nicokaan.nl

George,From what I understand you have 3 Com ports?Also can you tell me of the compatibility of FSBus classic to NG.ie: what boards are cross compatible with what boards. I have the classic com, AD, Key Led.David

>Perdona Alberto. Pero lo que dices no es verdad.>>Los dise

Hola Alberto !Pero comprende, que una cosa es que tengas problemas en imprimir el PCB y otra que el producto sea gratuito.Para imprimir un fichero gerber, s

3 Com ports?!.. No way!FSBus only needs one COM port on the PC. I agree this is a disadvantage compared to USB.Here's how it works.The PC is connected to the FSCOM board via COM and a single serial cable (1:1 expansion, not Null modem).Then ON the FSCOM board, you connect FSKEY, FSLED, FSDisplay, IOModule, everything via a 10cable IDE connector. But actually only 7cables are required including the power for the connected boards, so using expansion serial cables you can connect cards that are away from FSCom. I even used the extra 2 cables from the serial cable to pass seperate 5V supply for my backlighting.The FSBus NG is compatible with the classic cards.However, you can only program the new NG microcontrollers via the new FSCOM. You need the classic FSCOM or a flasher to flash the old PIC16F84A microcontrollers of the classic. If you have them already flashed, you have no problem.The new FSbus NG only requires 5V supply. No need for a 9V supply anymore. I have even modified the Classic FSCom to accept 5V and 12V from a PC PSU Molex connector (exactly as you said Nico), and got rid of the 555 timer and the extra circuitry.Now, to your question, just to make it clear. You can still use your classic AD, Key and LED boards with the new COM board and software.Simply select the appropriate option in FSRouter.You can also combine classic and NG boards on the new COM board, provided that the classic IDs are within certain limits. Please refer to the FSBus documentation for further info.I beleive this is the first time IOCards and FSBus hardware and software confront out in the open. I'm very pleased about this. I will looking for such arguments for a long time, and I honestly thing that it will help a lot of people to understand the pros and cons of each platform. After all, they are both freeware, so there's no gain or loss for anyone here.George DorkofikisAthens, Hellashttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/811520/1704.png

Hi GeorgeSeems that u have already expieriance with NG boardsCan you tell as what is the difference in the perfomace betweenthe Classic and NG boards or thats only new microprocessors used , different functionality layouts,and some extra fucntions available like display dimming and blanking? Any other advantages using NG?Thank in advance

>There are other harware arguments that are in favor of>IOCards. They only need 5V power supply, which can easily be>taken from a free Molex connector from your PC Power supply.>So there's not a separate +9V powersupply needed as it is with>FSBUS.Just for the record, FSBUS apparently runs OK on +12V from a pc power supply also, the regulator just needs a good heatsink (which doesnt hurt even on 9V)FSBus is very nice, the apparent problem is Dirk's limited time available for (especially) software development. It has some bugs, but we need to remember most of the stuff works just fine, and has worked for years.The iocards/opencockpits folks speak a strange language :) and the iocards software is harder to learn (it's more "technical" programmer-oriented approach) But they are trying very hard to make their stuff available to others for a very reasonable price. And they are very friendly and nice people.But then again, if you are learning-challenged and want finished solutions, this is not the right hobby. :) Same goes for the "I paid for this ####, so fix it for me!" -attitude :)//Tuomas