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Tom Allensworth

How do we look at our Freeware Designers...

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This may tick off most of the FS community but someone has to say it.I wrote Kevin Trinkle a couple of days ago wondering when his GMAX 727 was going to be released. He told me that since he received so much negative hype about his design that he was now out of the FS Design arena. I do remember awhile back we had certain users complaining and griping about freeware aircraft and in turn pissing allot of designers off. Some like Kevin have gotten out of the game entirely or gone payware leaving us with a big campaign to appreciate designers for whatever (whatever) they do especially if they are offering their work for free. What I have a problem with is I feel we have taken this a little too far and it's kind of sad. We all should whole heartedly support and embrace our freeware designers or risk loosing them but (and this is a big BUT) there is nothing wrong with being upfront with designers as long as we don't cross that fine line of being anal. This brings me to Mike Stone's 727. Now I think he did an excellent job with his flight dynamics/model but it is sad we have a sub par visual design and people are afraid to say anything. I do not recall this kind of respect and appreciation given to other designers in the past, especially if their work was not up to par. None of you can tell me Mike's dimensions are visually on the money like Kevin Trinkle or Mitsuru Ishikawa's (FSDS) offerings. Even David Rawlins AI 727 more closely resembles a 727 than Mike Stone's. Why did we blast these other designers for their outstanding work and uphold Mike's 727 which looks more like a Russian airliner verses an American Boeing. Now we have lost two great freeware designers (actually a few others as well) who could have given us some great GMAX Freeware airframes. Is our community playing favorites with one designer over another. If this is the case, at least choose someone who can deliver all the way around and not make an aircraft that is visually lacking.Mike Stone I for one am going to be honest with you by saying you did a good job on the flight model but your visual model is lacking greatly any kind of realism to the bird your simulating. I will say thank you for what you have done and hope your work continues and gets better over time. I've seen your other aircraft and I think their great.Kevin Trinkle and Mitsuru Ishikawa thank you for your great work and I for one am sorry for how our community treated you for the awesome work you put in. Your efforts are not forgotten, maybe our community will show you the appreciation that we've given others.I'm not concerned about any negative feedback because all one has to do is load up one of Kevin Trinkle's 727s and compare it to Mike's. Oh yeh, Kevin's was free also and it flew right on the numbers. Here is Kevin's email 'trinkle@iflypsa.com' (don't know Mitsuru Ishikawa's address), maybe if half the people showed their appreciation for Kevin's work as we did Mike Stone, we'd have another freeware designer back with us designing GMAX models. For those who don't know Kevin's work do a search on his name and you'll see why I say he hasn

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This is a pretty silly discussion. Most freeware airplane designers create planes because they ENJOY it. It's a HOBBY. Anyone who can be driven away from designing because their work isn't as popular as someone elses' obviously has other issues to deal with. You think Mike Stone doesn't get his share of criticism?As for those of us who just download and fly, I can only speak for myself, but I fly what I LIKE and what workey've never developed the skills to create their own freeware...I am somewhat astonished and disillusioned by some of the things I see in the FS community these days. There is barely a day I log into the forums (which I probably do too much) that doesn't go by that there isn't another announcement heralding the death of freeware and that another site has gone down because of the negative feedback, yada yada. The whole thing is starting to remind me of the campus cafeteria at a girl's middle school...alliances, betrayals, retributions, back-biting and other adolescant behavior. Can't we all grow up a bit?chris (PHNL)

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I think we're all getting too excited about a young fellow who clearly can't think straight, can't spell yet, and gets his kicks out of posting this kind of stuff in every forum; I'm afraid I also lost my cool and laid into him in "the other forum", where he is brave enough to appear under a different alias.And here I am, adding yet another nonsense to this thread. Ridiculous, isn't it?Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumonthttp://www.swiremariners.com/cxkaitak.htmlhttp://www.swiremariners.com/reds.htmlhttp://www.swiremariners.com/cxkaitakv3.jpg

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Mark,Agree with you on people who use an alias. I for one am kinda proud that I have such a rare last name. :)Matthew John Michael Krochmalny :)Sylvania, ohio,

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I love Kevin's 727's. I admire Mike's work as well. I have to agree though that if I would critque one or the others work. It would be labeled as bashing. I haven't really tried to design much and I don't have the time that these two individuals have invested in the enjoyment of the hobby. I am greatful for the work they have put into the 727's. Now Mike, If I were to say the tail of your 727 was a little wide and not quite as sloped as a real 727. The wings sit up too high on the fuselage. How would you take it? Kevin, your 727 is great but the night textures are messed up in Fs2002 and the windscreen with the lights on show the flap textures. How would you take it? I don't participate much in these forums anymore, because it seems as if you have to always walk on egshells when you say something. I meant no disrespect to either designer. I just wanted to offer some input to something that I don't have the talent or time to do myself. Both sides have to take a look at things. The designers have to be able to take constructive criticism without going off on a wild tangent. The people who use the designs have to offer the criticism in a tactful way. Each side needs to put themselves in the other's shoes. The word for the day is "Empathy"

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My name is Les Dillon for all who want to know. Avsim or Flightsim.com would not let me use my real name. I appreciate the fact that some of you didn't agree with what I tried to say but that's fine. Maybe some of you weren't around when Trinkle went through his bashing on this and other forums. He is out of the game now and I thought many would now see other designers besides Mike's work and embrace them as well. I too thank the many freeware designers out there who give their time and effort to our hobby and ask nothing in return for it, I see now that most could care less about the quality but rather the fact someone took their time to give us something for free. I just hope we keep this same attitude for every designer that comes out in the future and not just a choosen few. That's all I have to say.......

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I feel forced to respond to this message, when I would prefer not to.I chose to stop publicly designing after the 727 project, due to criticisms. There was also another reason - I wasn't having fun. I wanted a break from slaving over FSDS to produce something where I wouldn't make one thin dime. I stopped privately designing last year, since I had accomplished everything I wanted, and had no interest in pursuing it further.I never cared about publicity, and never publicized any release. It wasn't about the fame for me - it was creating things that I wanted, that I thought others would like.I have not seen Mike's 727, nor do I have plans to learn GMax. I just purchased FS2002 2 weeks ago, and had not opened FS2000 in almost 8 months before that. (FYI - I haven't even loaded my 727 into FS2002!)My day job is operations/ramp for a major airline, and I spend so much time around the real thing that I don't want to spend my free time in FS. I prefer to spend my free time doing other things that got neglected during the 5+ years I spent buried in FS design.Please DO NOT E-MAIL me. I don't want to hear pleas to return.As for Mr. Dillon, I did not ask him to post the original post, and do not agree with his views.

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You said it all and I bet Mike and the other designers here are going to get offended because you offered an opinion. It's a sad day in the FS community....

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Whooofffoa.I am glad you have never found any of my stuff. I will hide it. Protect it. You will never find it. Whhhaaaaahhaaaa.Opps.Frenchy -- out.

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Well,Kevin I thought by what you told me that people put your work down and that's why you stopped making aircraft. Sorry if I misunderstood you. It's good to know that I spent half the night trying to convince people to treat everyone the same and not take favorites using your hard work as an example only to find out you don't agree with anything I said either. This makes for a complete waist of my time by my own efforts. I still think you did great work Kevin just the same, sorry your gone and sorry I misunderstood you. I hope everyone here has a good night and may you all have many wonderful hours in the sky.Sorry Mike for hounding on your design.....Good Night....

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Les:I have a great admiration for anyone who spends his/her time in designing and painting planes for all of to enjoy. Its hard work and too often those designers don't get any appreciation for what they have done. What I say, is first thank you to all those talented designers, like Mike Stone, Heather, ect for making flight simmulation fun for me. Second point, if you don't like it and does not meet your needs, don't download it in the first place. If you want perfection, design your own. I am not going to judge anyone's work at all. I simply enjoy them and I am thankful to those who took their time and made them. We all have personal preferences, wheather its this or that. Anyone deserves respect and your post does help. I think personally its a slap in the face. Give them a break and stop trying to be a perfectonist in a inperfect work. Its never going to happen. Charles Huckelbery

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Ok Mr. Dillon....Who in hell gives you the right too critisize Mr. Mike Stones work, whilst you are defending Kevin Trinkles? HUH? doesn't that seem a little HYPOCRITICAL? yeeeeeeah... I think so buddy... and quite frankly I don't like it, I'm all for freedome of speech, but my god man... you don't have too blatently disrespect people while doing it, like what everybody with common sense of mind says "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DELETE IT" I personaly don't give a rats rear if you like any SimuBuild or anybody elses models for that matter. Its people like you that are making these designers go away, for example us at SimuBuild... all the critisim (and other matters too) we figgured that "No...we are tired of the people bad mouthing us all the time" like esspecialy when we got some pretty nasty emails "I hate your model" "Your model is crap!" etc... we didn't think it was worth it, but then we realised, and had the support of MANY people (thanks too you guys ;-)) that we will someday be back! I know too ignore people's posts who disrespect other people's work, even though they couldn't do even half of who they critisize.... :-roll sad really... hah and your not even paying for it! Personaly, I don't think you should start topics like this ever again, because quite honestly what you say doesn't matter, it's just another little person whining about something they don't have too have. :-) Best Regards Derek Beal :-wave[link:www.aeroflot.com]http://flightsimmers.net/va/aeroflot724/header_logo_ru.jpgPROUD RUSSIAN/CANADIAN! :D http://www.x-plane.org/users/dbeal/3dflags...om_russi2bl.gif http://www.x-plane.org/users/dbeal/canadaa.gif

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I won't waste my breath on a troll such as yourself Les, so I have one word for you. Pathetic. Go troll somewhere else.

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Les,You make a good point, but I don't think you understand it yourself. For the record, here is what you are trying to say:"It is wrong for us to criticize designers for their hard work, as we did in the case of Kevin Trinkle. It is wrong for us to pick favorites and compare models with each other. We should simply appreciate what we have, and offer constructive criticism when we think a designer has made a mistake." The logical continuation, which I will add to your very good start, is that we must recognize that the designer is not obligated to correct any shortcomings of his design, even after we do point them out, for as Mike said, at some point it's good enough for the designer, and that's how it's going to be.Unfortunately, the fact that you proceeded to bash Mike Stone and attempted to prove the superiority of Kevin's model over Mike's obscures your point.Yes, it was wrong of the flightsim community to relentlessly criticize Kevin Trinkle for shortcomings in his work. The proper way to correct that is to ensure we don't offend other designers the same way. The "unhelpful solution" is to "make the playing field even" by making sure we give everyone else the same treatment we gave Kevin.Or maybe you were just trolling, as John suggests. Oh well.Matt

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I have 2 questions for you Leo....1. What have you contributed in the way of add-ons that gives you the right to gripe about others work...2. No one can say that Mike Stones Goose is a botch up! It's perfect! I know cause I've flown may trips in a Goose in my young days....So nobodies perfect... You win some. You loose some. That's the way it is...Don't make us loose another great aircraft designer...Stop wasting our time and the forums space with griping.. Go out and make something that's better yourself...I don't often use this tone in my postings, but this has really cheesed me off....//Tonni

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Lets try this again shall we...first, try to present some facts.1) the number of high quality freeware designs is far lower now than it was for FS2000.2) designers are quitting because they are being flamed over the smallest imperfection.3) some designers are not being critisized at all, despite their work having serious flaws (or at least, that crisisism isn't public).Now to try and find some reasons for that.1) designing for FS2002 is harder. Gmax is harder to use than FSDS, the expected standards have gone up, and people now expect a full aircraft with virtual cockpit and panel which they didn't expect for FS2000. All this leads to development requiring more skills than before and taking longer, making it ever harder for a single individual to accomplish.2) flaming people seems to have quickly become the norm for some. Flamers seem to concentrate on people/groups that have excellent work with minor flaws, driving them out of business in disgust. This might be explained by the flamers wanting to harm the FS scene at large rather than just vent frustration with poor designs. Best thing to do would be for organisations like Avsim to create blacklists of such people so they can be blocked in the future.3) maybe those designers get critisism in private email instead. Crisitism that way often is more constructive, offering possibilities for improvement (I know Mike Stone updated his 727 quickly after there were some bad flaws in the initial release. I guess someone alerted him to the problems allowing him to quickly address them. Mind that this is only a recent example and not meant to single out Mike. I don't like many of your aircraft personally, but you are rapidly improving and the 727 now looks impressive).Then, draw some conclusions from all this to make your argument.There are less quality addons being produced for FS2002 than there were in the past. The reasons for this are threefold: First, people have come to expect more so something will take longer to create. This will reduce the number of people that can find the time to build something as well, decreasing the release rate even further. Second, the tools to be used are more complex so less people will be able to learn them properly (both because of technical problems and lack of time). Last but not least, those who do take the time to come up with a quality addon will more likely than not become the target of flamewars both in public and private. This leads some of them to stop and prevents others from entering the scene because they don't want that for themselves.Of course this does not cover every case. Some designers may not want to accept that they can be imperfect and take even well meant constructive criticism as a personal insult.In the past, these designers just quietly went away. Now they post here and elsewhere demanding public recognition. Effectively, they're the exact opposite of those people flaming designers. These are designers flaming their users. Maybe some became that way because of being disgusted with flames in the past, but probably not most.Now, lastly, try to give some ideas about what can be done to overcome the problems.1) find a way to silence the senseless flamers. Maybe a blacklist which can be shared between designers will help in this, plus permanent bans from forums such as this one.2) find a way to encourage designers to cooperate more. Groups like POSKY and FFG (just examples, there are more) are successfull in releasing quality addons. When such a group goes silent with no new releases for a while, don't pester them with demands and questions. Most likely they're hard at work on something.3) keep critisism constructive. Don't just say something isn't right, but give indications or details on what it should be and maybe even on how that could be achieved. Maybe the designer didn't have the correct data, or maybe he DID have that data but didn't know how to properly interpret it or how to incorporate it into his design.Now, I've said much the same as you did, but it doesn't sound half as harsh...

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"(...) Les(bian)?? what? Are you for real dude! (...)"What problem do you have with lesbians? What decent purpose can be served by bringing somebody's alleged sexual orientation into this discussion, just in order to disrespect and put a person down? In the past it was shown that the moderators of this forum go to applaudable ends to protect the dignity of those who happen to have another sexual orientation than most of us. I have no idea what being a lesbian has to do with the designing of airplanes for FS, so I guess you just mention the word as a term of abuse.Considering the strong stance this forum takes towards those who really or allegedly discriminate against gays and lesbians, I fully trust that your insulting message does not go unnoticed.Jaap Verduijn.

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