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dmaher

Real life pilot, please tell me

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Hi,Speaking of jet-liner even not Heavy, is it common to use speed brake during descent? Or those jet planes are normally designed to reduce speed only with throttle at idle? Flight model in FS tends to be over-powered and hard to reduce speed without speed brake. I wonder if it is what it should be.Thank youYuki

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That's called descend planning.It's the aim to arrive a few miles before the outer marker at the correct speed and altitude at idle power.It's neither fuel efficient nor real passenger comfort let alonegood airmanship to use the speedbrakes.You only need them if ATC asks for something specific.RegardsBernt Stolle Capt CRJ

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Yes, speedbrakes are allowed to be used during descent to reduce speed at a higher rate to meet atc requirements and to increase rate of descent or both. In fact, almost all of my flights speedbrakes are used by pilots. Just that they don't deploy fully, as of after touchdown.

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Thank you for information.So, aircrafts in the Sim would be pretty close to real as it might need speed brake to slow down.It is nice to know that what I do is correct.Rgrds

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Yeah, it's interesting how the ATC in FS works when you are nearing your destination on an IFR flight plan. It'll give you an initial instruction to start descending to a given altitude, but as long as you maintain some sort of descent rate, it won't remind you again until you get near it. At least this has been my experience.For example, let's say you're enroute to LAX, 100 nm out, at FL350. ATC instructs you to FL110. If you start your descent at 1000fpm, instead of 1500 or 2000fpm, and don't slow down enough, you'll be a lot closer to the airport than you should be. ATC won't clear you down to a lower altitude until you get within approx. 1,000 feet of FL110, and that's how I've missed the outer marker sometimes.I think in the next version of FS the ATC/AI engine should really be expanded upon to include more intelligence in vectoring aircraft into and out of a terminal area. Then, when MS gets the system working flawlessly (ha!), they can sell it to the FAA! :)

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>It's neither fuel efficient nor real passenger comfort let alonegood airmanship to use the speedbrakes.Rather depends on the aircraft and arrival though. Many times speedbrakes are needed to make certain restrictions on the arrival. Also, it depends on how "clean" the aircraft is. While the 727 didn't need them most of the time (we joked about them being for emergency use only in-flight), the A320 series is clean as a whistle and SB's are used quite often on arrival/approach to help slow things down (especially going into ORD). Many times good airmanship dictates the liberal use of speedbrakes so as not to force a go-around.Dave

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How do you use speed brakes?What are they I guess is a better question?

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hi there, good question... You might think that reducing performance would never be desirable. But, it you have ever tried to make a rapid descent in a clean aircraft, or slow down on final approach, you will appreciate those devices designed to reduce lift or increase drag. basically Spoilers are devices designed specifically to reduce lift. They also increase drag. if you will they extend from the surface of the wing into the air stream. The spoiler will disrupt (separate) the boundary layer, thereby increaseing drag and "spoiling" lift on the part of the wing affected by the spoiler and if am not mistaking here... Speed brakes are devices similar to spoilers but attached to the fuselage rather than the wing. Therefore, the speed brake produces drag without affecting lift.Often the terms speed brake and spoiler are misused. In other words sometimes spoilers are called speed brakes Henry. CYXT

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Very accurate description. You are very correct in the proper terminology. Most do use the two terms synonomously.Dave

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Thanks guys.....so how do you activate them on FS2002? Is there a panel switch or a keystroke to use? I am sure it depends on if your aircraft if equipped with them or not also.

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It does not depend on the aircraft.If you know your aircraft and can plan your descend you never have to use them, except if you are a bad pilot.As stated, if ATC needs it, it's of course different.>Many times good airmanship dictates the liberal use of speedbrakes so as not to force a go-around.

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The speedbrakes are activated with the / key...the forward slash key. Hit / to extend them and hit / again to retract them.

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I've had this very same question for a while now too. I have found that the default FS2K2 aircraft often need the use of speedbrake to acheive descent altitudes and speeds, even with proper descent planning, whereas the PSS 747 that I have been flying of late seems much more realistic in only needing speedbrake for changes of ATC's mind. A transport pilot mate of mine once told me that the use of speedbrakes in normal flight planning circumstances is considered to be a no no in the pilot community. Actually, his description was a little more colourful than this in that he likened it to planning to throw up when you go out for a night on the town!Gary

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A good friend of mine, who flies 757s, would probably be the first to tell you that you often need to "pop the boards" to get that puppy slowed down during descent. Planning is not the issue, both the performance of the particular aircraft and ATC requirements have much to do with it.I recall many 757 flights, on major US carriers, where the very same was done, typically while slowing down during descent to make the 250 knot speed restriction. This seems to be quite common with the 757, and as I said, a 757 pilot has confirmed this, and I have witnessed the same on many 757 flights. Does this mean that it needs to apply to other aircraft? Absolutely not. I am just referring to one aircraft in particular as an example.I'll be having dinner with Eric tomorrow, and will ask him again, but I expect the same answer. ;-)Ultimately, I feel this will depend on the aircraft you are flying, and perhaps company procedures. I do not believe there is one hard/fast rule, or whether or not it demonstrates poor planning or "airmanship". The aircraft has something to do with it also.Eric is a VERY good pilot, and I think many of you know of him. Call them spoilers, speed brakes, or "boards", there's also a reason why companies such as Mooney put them on their aircraft, and trust me, in the case of Mooney, they are not meant for use once on the ground. Apparently the 757 shares something in common. ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F..._FORUM_LOUE.jpg

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>If you know your aircraft and can plan your descend you never have >to use them, except if you are a bad pilot.I respectfully disagree with you. I'm not sure where you fly, but flying into crowded airspace such as New York, Washington, Boston, Houston, Los Angeles, San Francisco etc, you will use your speed brakes 80% of the time.Flying into these areas seldom finds the pilot flying the exact published decent profile, ESPECIALLY when you are getting a straight in approach. Many times you are expecting a decent from FL350 to cross a certain fix at 21,000 and all of a sudden you are crossing that fix at 3,000 fpm trying to get to 10,000 by the next fix where you were expecting 18,000.Additionally, many STARS require steep decents to keep the power off and the noise to a minimum. Again, you WILL reach for that speed brake handle.I cannot count how many times flights into KDCA have had the speed brakes deployed while dropping flaps AND gear while capturing the ILS because you get decent to the FAF to capture the GS from some ungodly altitude and you need to be at some semblance of an approach speed before you rip your flaps off. In many cases, we are at 5 miles out of KDCA with the flaps still deployed trying to get to Vref+5 or risking floating down the runway and going around (which makes one look extremely sophomoric when the last 30 aircraft have landed ahead of you :-) )Sure, if you are flying in leisurely airspace like KBOZ or KABQ then you would probably never use your speed brakes, but real world flying under positive control finds that the paint next to the speed brake lever is as worn thin as the paint next to the flaps.My experience has been that, in crowded airspace especially with weather and 5 minute seperation "reduce speed to 220, decend at best rate to cross X at 5,000" warrants a 3,000fpm decent when you are still at 18,000 and humming along at 280kts IAS. As such you will either deploy your spoilers or you'll blow your speed restriction.Nothing to do with bad airmanship in the vast majority of cases, just the reality of flying in positive controlled airspace, IMHO. Your OWN calculated decent means a hill of beans in very many cases because a guy in a dark room has other plans for you! :-lolRegards,Mike T.

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This was the original question:>Or those jet planes are normally designed to reduce speed only with>throttle at idle? The answer is yes! Regardless if it's a Motorglider or a Concorde.I'm still waiting to see a Concorde using the speedbrakes!You are all refering to ATC restriction and not to own planning.Again, if you are too stupid to calculate your descend you shouldn't be in a cockpit. Same if you are too stupid to anticipate the 250kts restriction.It's that simple.Regards Bernt Stolle Capt CRJ

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Dear Capt Stolle,I don't appreciate your calling pilots that use speed brakes stupid.I'll match my 18000hrs+ with yours, over 8000 in DC-9's , 2000 in 757's and 1600 in DC-10's and at my airline they expect the pilots to use all the tools that are available to them. It's attitudes like yours that make it hard for those of us that have worked in training departments to dispell "Old wives tales".Ed WeberNorthwest Airlines Retired

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Actually I follow the FS2002 ATC most of the time and I don't need to use speed brakes except for twice in all these months (because I had 150 kts winds pushing me forward)... Although when the ATC says "descend and maintain blah" I do set an aim as to how far off I will be at that altitude!By the way where are the Concorde speed brakes :-hmmmKitty MercuryCathay Pacific Virtual Pilot (CX252)

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Do not Exist.Paul MeyerMorris C09Bellanca CitabriaCessna 150, 152, 172

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Ed, The main 'tool' is the computer between your ears and ability.I would appreciate if you READ exactly what I've written.Maybe your are already so old that your eyes are too bad to do so.If not, I'm glad that I don't know your training department.But I still remember, when the northwest pilots apparently trained by your department,landed their DC-10 in Franfurt instead of Brussels UNINTENTIONALLY!!!So much for dangerous stupidity! Bernt Stolle Capt CRJ

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God, you're pathetic...Someone wants to learn something here. That's all...

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I've know of one incident that the pilots also lowered the landing gear to create drag, spoilers up to flight detend, nose down, speed close to max gear extension IAS and dive for an emergency landing. It's a B744!

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JubileeI havent got the jet time of either Bernt or Tallpilot and only fly Slowtations.Going into Antwerp in the Citation Five which has a very high gear speed of 250 kts we were held high for too long and had to have more drag to make the runway.We decided to drop the gear at 250 kts instead of extending the speedbrakes more as an experiment.The noise and pitch change at that speed was immense ;-) Speed brakes in the citation are noisy as well and as you are trying to make the flight as smooth and comfortable as possible for your passengers we tend to rarely use them unless forced to either by ATC or a miscalculation.Peter

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Hi Peter,Long time no hear :-)We sometimes have to use the gear at 250 as well but it scares the hell out of the passengers who are sitting in the vicinity of the gear.Sounds like an explosion!In the meantime our planes are so 'old' >5000hrs that the hydraulic pumps or unable to cope with that load.So if you forget to non-standard switch on additional hydraulics you get a whole bunch of master warnings and cautions like: gear disagree, nose door etc...This in turn scares the hell out of new co-pilots. LOL BTW. I'm just designing a Citation II for x-plane 6.4.The FM is already capable of the following things.100% correct Vmca,1st,2nd,final segment climb, landing approach climb. 1 and 2 engine crz and ceiling.The famous one power setting for cln level, app flaps level, full flap & gear down 3deg glide works as well.Things fs2002 FMs will never be able to do ;-)May I e-mail you a few question about the II ?Best RegardsBernt

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Bernt,You attack others suggesting they are stupid but I would respectfully suggest that any "real" captain would know that Concorde does not have speedbrakes.Please don't ever consider flying one - you would look very stupid asking the co-pilot where the speedbrake is!

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