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Bush flying -Approach and landing speeds problem

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This is a REALLY basic question -- I have been simming for quite a while now and can do most things -- but the one thing that I have a problem with is landing speeds. I am always landing at speeds that are a little too fast. Now this has not been a problem till now because I have been landing at airports with long runways -- but lately I have been doing some bush flying and my landing speeds, being too fast , are getting me into trouble :)For example, I am currently flying a Beechcraft Twin tail-dragger. The author recommends an approach speed of 94 knots and a landing speed of 72 knots. So somewhere , I have to lose 20 knots .Now with a taildragger , you can't just jump on the brakes upon landing because it will go nose over - so it essential to get the speed down for landing. So, I am on approach at around 94 knots and I start to come down for the final approach-- full flaps but the aircraft won"t slow sufficiently. If I give it a bit of up elevator to level out for a little, it will lose speed but then I am above the correct glidepath. Flaring out just before landing causes me to use too much runway.How do you experts do it :)?Barry

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Slip It! I won't tell ya how to slip it here, because you say you use flaps, but side slip, slip, whatever you do, read up about it, do an internet search, thats your best bet, unless you can get your hands on an instructor. Also, coming in slower and lower would be a good idea.Paul MeyerMorris,IL C09Cessna 150/152, 172Bellanca Citabria

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>For example, I am currently flying a Beechcraft Twin >tail-dragger. The author recommends an approach speed of 94 >knots and a landing speed of 72 knots. So somewhere , I have >to lose 20 knots.Fly the pattern at 94 kts, but you should be at 72 kts on final. Use your judgement on when to start slowing down. Like, right before turning base.>Now with a taildragger , you can't just >jump on the brakes upon landing because it will go nose over >- so it essential to get the speed down for landing. Try three point landings. Since you have to bring the a/c to a stall, when you are on the ground your speed will be very low and with the tail down you can hit the brakes.>So, I >am on approach at around 94 knots and I start to come down >for the final approach-- full flaps but the aircraft won"t >slow sufficiently. If I give it a bit of up elevator to >level out for a little, it will lose speed but then I am >above the correct glidepath. Flaring out just before landing >causes me to use too much runway. I did some bush flying in Brazil. You should have in mind that you won't be able to fly the a/c by the numbers. Bush flying never was and will never be an easy and safe thing to do. Of course you try to, but most of the time you will be out of the envelope. Knowing your a/c limitations is very important, too. You'll be pushing these limits way above to the max, but even that has limits! ;)Just for curiosity I once saw some guys tying down a Caravan to a tree. The airplane was loaded way above the Max T/O Weight and the runway, of course, was shorter than the Min T/O Distance. After pulling full power from the "beast" the pilot gave the sign to a guy on the side of the Caravan, and that guy gave the ok for the guy on the back that was holding a hatch. From there you can imagine what he did, right? ;)Have fun!

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>>For example, I am currently flying a Beechcraft Twin >>tail-dragger. The author recommends an approach speed of 94 >>knots and a landing speed of 72 knots. So somewhere , I have >>to lose 20 knots.>>Fly the pattern at 94 kts, but you should be at 72 kts on >final. Use your judgement on when to start slowing down. >Like, right before turning base. >>>Now with a taildragger , you can't just >>jump on the brakes upon landing because it will go nose over >>- so it essential to get the speed down for landing. >>Try three point landings. Since you have to bring the a/c >to a stall, when you are on the ground your speed will be >very low and with the tail down you can hit the brakes. >>>So, I >>am on approach at around 94 knots and I start to come down >>for the final approach-- full flaps but the aircraft won"t >>slow sufficiently. If I give it a bit of up elevator to >>level out for a little, it will lose speed but then I am >>above the correct glidepath. Flaring out just before landing >>causes me to use too much runway. >>I did some bush flying in Brazil. You should have in mind >that you won't be able to fly the a/c by the numbers. Bush >flying never was and will never be an easy and safe thing to >do. Of course you try to, but most of the time you will be >out of the envelope. Knowing your a/c limitations is very >important, too. You'll be pushing these limits way above to >the max, but even that has limits! ;) >>Just for curiosity I once saw some guys tying down a Caravan >to a tree. The airplane was loaded way above the Max T/O >Weight and the runway, of course, was shorter than the Min >T/O Distance. After pulling full power from the "beast" the >pilot gave the sign to a guy on the side of the Caravan, and >that guy gave the ok for the guy on the back that was >holding a hatch. From there you can imagine what he did, >right? ;) >>Have fun! Ummm, let's see......chopped down the tree?

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How about adjusting your throttle ?If you don't believe aircraft can be slowed - cut the power and see what happens ...Michael J.

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Barry,Check out my tutorial on "Short Field" operations in my recently posted article on Bush Flying in FS2002. In that tutorial I describe the technique of flying the back-side of the power curve on approach. The combination of reading the book "Stick & Rudder" along with that tutorial should give you the necessary skill tools needed for this type of approach to landing. Good Luck! (-:Bear!

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Typically, one uses 1.2 to 1.3 times stall speed for approach speed. Sim birds don't always stall at the same speed as their real life counterparts. Do some flight testing. Configure the bird for landing and see what speed it stalls at. Multiply that number by perhaps 1.2. Fly your approach at that speed and as you enter ground effect, reduce power to idle and land. Let me know how it works.

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>Ummm, let's see......chopped down the tree? :-lol How about just cutting the rope? ;)Regards.

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I generally glide down in a stall or just above stall speed, a burst of engine at the right moment decreases my decent rate and I slide right in to a flaired landing. I only do this once I "know" an airplane lots of high altitude stalls and power on to find out exactly where it stalls and how it recovers, a lot of aircraft I cant land this way and ultimately dont bush fly them. larger bush fields or places that dont need so steep a decent rate I fly more "normally", that is maybe five whole knots above my stall speed. I also use the notepad found in each aircraft to make notes of the stall speeds I encounter

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BarraA good landing is the result of a good stabilised approach which means holding accurate speeds and controlling the aircraft down and accurate profile.Maybe your glidepath is too steep if so try getting a visual appreciation of the correct glidepath by hooking up an ILS and using the glidepath indications from that to confirm your own visual glidepath.In a short field landing try to be on a low glidepath if terrain and obstacles permit ie 2 degrees.Make it a powered approach which real world gives you more control than a glide approach and makes for a more accurate touchdown point.Use 1.3 times the stall speed in full flap,gear extended configuration and reduce to that speed on short finals ie 300 feet agl.It might be a good point at 300 feet to also take full flap which will help bring the speed back to your required referance speed.Keep your eyes on the touchdown point and nail that speed and your chosen glide.The beauty of a powered approach is that you are powering in and can literally drive the aircraft onto your touchdown point chopping the throttle maybe only ten feet up.Peter

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>It might be a good point at 300 feet to also take full flap >which will help bring the speed back to your required >referance speed. Peter Thanks for your reply and advice. In many ways (and not wanting to appear ungrateful to all the responders to my post ) :) -- I feel that my question hasn't really been answered, but you have given me something to work on.Firstly I can see that I am not slowing enough on base and final approach - and should take the opportunity to do so before I actually start to descend on final. The problem for me is that once I start to descend it is very difficult AFTER THAT to lose airspeed. Losing it before the descent starts is easy -- but I will try your "trick" to use the final notch of flaps just before landing .I have never flown in real life - and kind of thought that landing flaps would be set before the descent and not during it -- to, as you say, ensure a "stabilized " approach and descent.This is all interesting stuff - and as I don't believe that I will ever get the opportunity to do it in real life, the Sim is as close as I can do.Barry

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Use 85 knots as an approach speed and 80 over the fence speed. Do NOT go under that speed until you are commited to land or you will be below Vmc. At 80 knots she should be ok for you. BUT......don't forget this....Not ALL fields can be visited by a Beech 18. I would keep them out of anything below 2500'- 3000'. Reason being. You can always get an airplane into a shorter area then you can get them out of. If you have a heavy load in the Beech, even 3000' can be exciting. They aren't homesick angels at full load.Don

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>Use 85 knots as an approach speed and 80 over the fence >speed. Do NOT go under that speed until you are commited to >land or you will be below Vmc. At 80 knots she should be ok >for you. BUT......don't forget this....Not ALL fields can be >visited by a Beech 18. I would keep them out of anything >below 2500'- 3000'. Reason being. You can always get an >airplane into a shorter area then you can get them out of. >If you have a heavy load in the Beech, even 3000' can be >exciting. They aren't homesick angels at full load. >Don Thanks Don I recently saw the movie "All the Pretty Horses" with Penelope Cruise . It had some shots of (what I am sure was) a Beechcraft 18 landing on dirt/grass strip supposedly in Mexico -- just for your info in case you ever see the film coming on TV.Barry

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Cool! There's a reason the Beech 18 is dubbed the "twin-tailed Doctor killer", and it has a bit to do with this discussion..despite books & knowledge, there's no substitute for "knowing your plane". One of the fellows who won the Tour D' France (a bicycle race) was asked what he did different in training to be such a star. "Ride the bike. Ride the bike. Ride the bike." And so, the fellows who can plop down a plane on a postage stamp in a hurricane...Good pilots? Great aviators? Nope...know their plane. :-)

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Lizardo, I think the plane dubbed the doctor killer was the V35 Bonanza and the term was "forked-tail doctor killer" from the propensity of early models to lose their tail feathers in turbulence and the propensity of undertrained wealthy MDs to buy more airplane than they could handle. The B18 is regarded by those that fly them as a pretty docile bird that is fairly easy to land, at least until it gets on the ground and starts rolling. It is a bear to taxi in anything like a straight line.

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