At last I got the CH rudder pedals to maximize the realism in FS9. It takes a lil getting used to at first but it definitely makes an amazing difference. Anyway, I was wondering if there is any additional material I can read regarding uncoordinated flight as well as various maneuvers using the rudder. Any particular flight lessons that I can try besides the ones included in FS9? Thank you.

Three most basic rules for the rudder:1. Step on the ball when climbing or descending or turning for coordinated flight. Normally right rudder for climb and left rudder for descent and keep the ball centered, when turning. 2. For landing "the wheel is for the wind, the rudder is for the runway." Use the wheel or yoke to keep the aircraft on the extended centerline of the runway and use the rudder to align the the yaw axis of the aircraft, with the runway centerline, prior to touchdown. 3. Practice rule 1 and rule 2 !!!!!!

>Three most basic rules for the rudder:>>1. Step on the ball when climbing or descending or turning>for coordinated flight. Normally right rudder for climb and>left rudder for descent and keep the ball centered, when>turning. >>2. For landing "the wheel is for the wind, the rudder is for>the runway." Use the wheel or yoke to keep the aircraft on>the extended centerline of the runway and use the rudder to>align the the yaw axis of the aircraft, with the runway>centerline, prior to touchdown. >>3. Practice rule 1 and rule 2 !!!!!! Really? I don't believe I have ever read anything regarding rudder use for ascents or descents. Can you elaborate a little more on that or at least point me to further information? Thank you.

Hi Superfort; The lessons-info in FS are really pretty good and you can find outa lot about the basics by browsing "The Learning Center" in FS. It will tell you about such things as using Rudder to counter P-Factorand torque in climbs and descents. Crank the Realisim setings to MAX and have fun!:D You just entered a whole new ball game}( DennyProfessional Tourist

Oh I've always been flying with full realism otherwise what's the point of even calling it a simulation I say :)Now that I have the ailerons and rudder uncoupled, I am having a bit of trouble understanding when exactly do I use the rudder and when exactly do I use just the ailerons. I fully understand the use of the turn coordinator and how to make a coordinated turn combining the rudder and ailerons but when would you use each component individually? I guess what Im tryin to understand is what are the different outcomes between rudder usage and aileron usage because to me it seems that I can make a right or left turn using just the rudder or using just ailerons. I'm sure there is a difference there but it's a little difficult to visualize for me in FS9.

Superfort; I think from now on I'll just call you B-29, shorter you know? Anyhow in a real plane the effect is REAL noticeable}( . In the Sim,however you need to pay atention to the turn and bank indicator. However what you have observed is true in he Sim, as well as realaircraft, in that if control input is ..light and gradual.. coordinatedflight can be maintained, by use of rudder,aileron, or both. By way of explanation: If you make a SUDDEN change to either rudderor aileron input, the "Ball" of the turn and bank indicator will moveout of center indicating "uncoordinated" flight. In addition..as outlined in the learning center..when bank anglereaches a certain point...elevator control is also required:D orelse you'll loose altitude. That is what makes flying just a little bit more difficult thandriving a car. As I said before..Have Fun! Oh! Don't neglect crosswind landings. Try some with the wind 60 degfrom runway heading at 10 gusting 25 kts}( DennyProfessional Tourist

Superfort,You are correct to an extent. You can turn by using rudder or Ailerons. (its just that using just one is not a very good idea)Just like in a bicycle... you can lean on one side and turn (this is your ailerons) without using your steering or you don't lean..but just turn your bicycle with just your steering wheel(this is your your rudder).Except in the case of you turning your bicycle only with the steering without leaning..means...the centrifugal force would tend to throw you to the opposite side of your turn. (Pushing you to the outside of your turn circle...In a plane, The ball would be to the opposite side of your turn showing a skid).For a coordinated turn in a Bicyle you want to do both. Lean towards the turn as well as use your steering. ;)The concept of stepping on the ball is useless...cause its too late by then. You need to turn and press the right amount of rudder without looking at the turn coordinator. If you have to look and then press the rudder... you have already skidded or slipped and you are now correcting the mistake.. the trick is, not to make that mistake in the first place.In real flying there is an exercise you do to get this down pat. As you fly straight and level and its all trimmed and steady.. you look at a distant object (Cloud maybe?) where the nose of your plane seems to be touching. Now, you try to turn the plane only and only on the horizontal axis. i.e. without the nose of the plane leaving the distant point. You do this reasonably fast (faster is easier in real planes)..you are for a moment almost on a 90 degree turn on each side. you basically move your aileron from one extreme end to the other..and the same time using your rudder...and the rudder press will lag the fast aileron and you go back and forth... but you are in effect flying straight (the ground track would be straight without any turn whatsoever or without losing any altitude..cockscrewing to each side on the horizontal axis) but totally opposite of level. Your wing is dropping to one side and the next second to the opposite side....back and forth.If you happend to have a glass of water on the dashboard... it should remain there without any spill. ;)does that make sense?I have tried this in the sim..and its harder in this sim than in real planes.thats how I learnt coordinated flight for real..As to the Q about why right rudder when climbing and left rudder when descending. hmmm... Google for it...thats another very important concept for flying too. There is tonnes of information about that.

I got my lesson in rudder pedals on my first glider experience. I had flown simulators and a few hours in small prop planes and they're real forgiving if you don't apply enough rudder or turn using only the rudder (as long as the turns are slow) since the propellor pretty much pulls you in the direction you're facing.However, in a glider you have no propellor pulling you in the direction the aircraft is facing. If you apply the rudders in a glider without banking with the ailerons, your plane simply flies crooked through the air, a very strange feeling. If you bank without the rudders, the tail starts dropping and you simply don't turn. It's a very fast lesson on 3 axis control.Art Martin

Superfort Sir,I feel the need to jump in here. I don't want to offend anybody, so hopefully, I won't.Regarding the use of rudder pedals:The rudder is used to control rotation about the verticle axis which is called "yaw".Yaw is normally induced in a real airplane via three sources, 1. the pilot pushing on a rudder pedal (induced yaw), 2. the airlerons creating asymetical drag (airleron yaw), and 3. the propeller producing asymetrical thrust (p-factor yaw). An example of #1 is a crosswind landing where the pilot pushes a rudder pedal to align the aircraft with the runway.Airleron yaw varies between airplanes as some have been designed to minimize it. But the basic principle involves the variation in air pressure between the top and bottom of the wing. The airleron that dips down encounters higher air pressure than the one the raises up. So, rudder is applied with the airleron to keep the higher drag airleron from pulling the nose in the opposite direction of the intended turn. It should be noted that the airplane turns as a result of the horizontal component of lift. The turn has nothing to do with the rudder. (Though I have notice that in flight sim, there is a need for rudder during the turn which is not totally correct). The only time rudder would be required during a turn, would be right rudder to counter act p-factor (unless you are flying a jet or a spitfire). The jet doesn't have the p-factor problem and a Spitfire turns the prop the other way so left rudder would be used. Also, most jets don't have airlerons. But I'm getting a little long winded here.P-factor results from a positive angle of attack, such as a climb or slow flight when the descending blade of the prop produces more thrust than the ascending blade. (There is a whole bunch more about this also).Hope this helps,Bill Worth

I have time in 18 different powered and unpowered aircraft in real life and the only truth is that, in the real world, you do what it takes to make the flight co-ordinated. Yaw during climb depends on the type of aircraft, engine fitted, AND the direction of rotation of the engine. As in many aircraft in FS, many aircraft in the real world need rudder trim to trim out the rudder force you would otherwise have to apply. Change the power, change the airspeed, change the trim (or the amount of ball-stepping) required. Of course, if the pane doesn't have rudder trim, then the ground adjusted trim tab might usually be set for `normal` cruise settings, so the pilot will have to apply constant rudder pressure during other flght regimes.When turning, some aircraft need little or no rudder to achieve co-ordinated turns at moderate angles of bank. Others need lots. Most are in between those extremes. As bank increases, so might the need for rudder - even OPPPOSITE rudder - to keep the turn coordinated. Others actually need a little leading with rudder before beginning the bank. Gliders often require such a method bacause their long wing spans and aileron leverage can induce unwanted yaw effects. Again powered aircraft attributes can change depending on the power applied. etc. etc. etc.So the truth is there is no truth. It is a shame that FS doesn't reflect this wide variety. Only a rare few aircraft respond to attitude/power changes like the real thing. Try Real Air flight models.This `dumbing down` of flight modelling at higher supposed reality settings is immensely disappointing. The Cessna Caravan, for example, requires a LOT of rudder trim before take-off or even a bootfull of rudder won't be enough to keep it straight. But its no bother in the sim. As MS assumes most customers DONT own rudder pedals, the rudder effects seem very muted to me. Yet it exaggerates the effect of weight displacement from the aircraft centreline way beyond the impact in the real world. Daft!For best assessment, do the following:Take a trial flight in a real light aircraft. Get some `hands on` time. It WILL be the best money you ever spend on simming!Hope this helpsAllcott

>Superfort,>>You are correct to an extent. You can turn by using rudder or>Ailerons. (its just that using just one is not a very good>idea)>>Just like in a bicycle... you can lean on one side and turn>(this is your ailerons) without using your steering or you>don't lean..but just turn your bicycle with just your steering>wheel(this is your your rudder).>>Except in the case of you turning your bicycle only with the>steering without leaning..means...the centrifugal force would>tend to throw you to the opposite side of your turn. (Pushing>you to the outside of your turn circle...In a plane, The ball>would be to the opposite side of your turn showing a skid).>>For a coordinated turn in a Bicyle you want to do both. Lean>towards the turn as well as use your steering. ;)>>The concept of stepping on the ball is useless...cause its too>late by then. You need to turn and press the right amount of>rudder without looking at the turn coordinator. If you have to>look and then press the rudder... you have already skidded or>slipped and you are now correcting the mistake.. the trick is,>not to make that mistake in the first place.>>In real flying there is an exercise you do to get this down>pat. As you fly straight and level and its all trimmed and>steady.. you look at a distant object (Cloud maybe?) where the>nose of your plane seems to be touching. Now, you try to turn>the plane only and only on the horizontal axis. i.e. without>the nose of the plane leaving the distant point. You do this>reasonably fast (faster is easier in real planes)..you are for>a moment almost on a 90 degree turn on each side. you>basically move your aileron from one extreme end to the>other..and the same time using your rudder...and the rudder>press will lag the fast aileron and you go back and forth...>but you are in effect flying straight (the ground track would>be straight without any turn whatsoever or without losing any>altitude..cockscrewing to each side on the horizontal axis)>but totally opposite of level. Your wing is dropping to one>side and the next second to the opposite side....back and>forth.>>If you happend to have a glass of water on the dashboard... it>should remain there without any spill. ;)>>does that make sense?>>I have tried this in the sim..and its harder in this sim than>in real planes.>>thats how I learnt coordinated flight for real..>>As to the Q about why right rudder when climbing and left>rudder when descending. hmmm... Google for it...thats another >very important concept for flying too. There is tonnes of>information about that.>>>Thanks. That bicycle example was quite useful. In regards to stepping on the ball, I guess according to what you said it's quite difficult to "feel" the necessary amount of rudder needed for a turn when flying within the boundaries of a flight simulation.

Hi,I was at work when I posted the previous message, and those pesky customers kept bothering me.(LOL)To clarify the use of rudders in a real propeller driven airplane:1. Rudder is used in conjunction with airlerons to roll into and out of a bank. Once the aircraft has achieved the desired bank, in a level turn, the rudder should be neutral along with the airlerons. The only need for control imput during a level turn is whatever amount of back pressure is required to keep from losing altitude. The turn is a function of bank and has nothing to do with rudders. Holding any rudder deflection during a level or descending turn in a properly rigged aircraft results in uncoordinated flight (slip or skid). 2. Rudder is also used to compensate for p-factor yaw. During a climb or slow flight rudder is used to maintain coordinated flight. Therefore, during a climbing turn, rudder (usually right rudder) would be necessary. I have found most flight modeling in flight sim to be inaccurate regarding the use of rudder. However, one can still do it right in flight sim with no adverse effects except the ball may not be centered when it should be. The airplane still flys pretty well.Hope this helps a little more,Bill Worth

>I have time in 18 different powered and unpowered aircraft in>real life and the only truth is that, in the real world, you>do what it takes to make the flight co-ordinated. >>Yaw during climb depends on the type of aircraft, engine>fitted, AND the direction of rotation of the engine. As in>many aircraft in FS, many aircraft in the real world need>rudder trim to trim out the rudder force you would otherwise>have to apply. Change the power, change the airspeed, change>the trim (or the amount of ball-stepping) required. Of course,>if the pane doesn't have rudder trim, then the ground adjusted>trim tab might usually be set for `normal` cruise settings, so>the pilot will have to apply constant rudder pressure during>other flght regimes.>>When turning, some aircraft need little or no rudder to>achieve co-ordinated turns at moderate angles of bank. Others>need lots. Most are in between those extremes. As bank>increases, so might the need for rudder - even OPPPOSITE>rudder - to keep the turn coordinated. Others actually need a>little leading with rudder before beginning the bank. Gliders>often require such a method bacause their long wing spans and>aileron leverage can induce unwanted yaw effects. Again>powered aircraft attributes can change depending on the power>applied. etc. etc. etc.>>So the truth is there is no truth. It is a shame that FS>doesn't reflect this wide variety. Only a rare few aircraft>respond to attitude/power changes like the real thing. Try>Real Air flight models.>>This `dumbing down` of flight modelling at higher supposed>reality settings is immensely disappointing. The Cessna>Caravan, for example, requires a LOT of rudder trim before>take-off or even a bootfull of rudder won't be enough to keep>it straight. But its no bother in the sim. As MS assumes most>customers DONT own rudder pedals, the rudder effects seem very>muted to me. Yet it exaggerates the effect of weight>displacement from the aircraft centreline way beyond the>impact in the real world. Daft!>>For best assessment, do the following:>Take a trial flight in a real light aircraft. Get some `hands>on` time. It WILL be the best money you ever spend on>simming!>>Hope this helps>>>AllcottOh I could'nt agree with you more regarding taking an actual flight lesson. A couple of years ago I took several introductory flight lessons. Unfortunately I could not continue because I simply could not afford it. I've been flight simming for years and what amazed me was that before my actual lessons I never had a clear understanding of what trimming an aircraft is all about. When it was taught to me during the flight lesson I understood it almost immediately and I quickly became very competent at trimming the aircraft. When I got home that day, FS9 became a totally difference experience for me because now it was engrained in my head as to what it's supposed to "feel" like. I definitely hope to resume real flying one day when I can afford. It really gives you a very differen perspective on FS9 after you've flown an actual airplane.

>>>Thanks. That bicycle example was quite useful. In regards to>stepping on the ball, I guess according to what you said it's>quite difficult to "feel" the necessary amount of rudder>needed for a turn when flying within the boundaries of a>flight simulation.>True... but you can look outside (outside view in a sim) and do the same just like in real. But the concept of stepping on the ball is a good theory to know... In the beginning, Depit helps teach you if you are slipping or skidding.Depending on the senitivity of the rudder, you should figure out how much of right pedal press is required when you turn to the right using your ailerons and vice versa. You should automatically apply some right rudder to the right turn aileron and left rudder for a left turn aileron. The amount will depend on the sensitivity of your ch pedals.In addition to using rudder for turns... while climbing (and in a descent) you would need right rudder. There are things like P-Factor, slipstream, Torque etc that requires this. The Prop is turing clockwise (relative to the Pilots position)... and so the fuselage wants to turn left.. to counter this you need right rudder.. This is simplest explanation I can give.

>>I definitely hope to resume real flying one day when I can afford. It really gives you a very differen perspective on FS9 after you've flown an actual airplane.True.. I got into real flying because of simming.. and now I enjoy simming lot more.:)