OK, the reason I ask is because your date does fall in line with the possibility of having a change in the SP2 core files which may very well explain what happened. July-August 2004 is when SP2 was initially released as I recall.. I would have to look that up, and, there were spots reports of O&O issues even with SP2 slipstreamed installs that were made within 6 months of SP2's initial release. Not a massive amount of reports but enough to get sys admins who made disks to replace them with new burns. Yes, there were changes to SP2 after its initial release.I probably should have asked you about the date of burn on that disk when you requested info about PD and switching to O&O. It's rare to find the issue today with any SP2 disk but in your case I can now see what may have gone wrong, and it is the same problem the Dell's suffered but on a different level. Its also possible the SOURCE disk with the original Windows files may have something on it that does not play nice and even a current 'redux' of the disk may harbor the same issue.. at this point I cannot tell you that for sure but I did want to relay the age of the slipstream can be a factor in the O&O/LBA problem.You will always need to go to WU for updates even if you create a new disk.Something did not get replaced or registered correctly in the disk you have and that is why this happened, I am sure of that now.Going to Windows Update is not going to correct this issue. Its directly related to the files on the CD being installed with Windows during a CLEAN install. You MUST clean install using a SP2 slipstreamed or GENUINE disk however if the SP2 disk is old, it may still contain the problem files and when a clean install is performed the HAL and system files are not in line with a 'true' SP2 install. It works, until a low level optimizing application like O&O comes along, then POW.

Hi Nick,From what you are saying it now looks like I would be well advised to stick with trusty PerfectDisk 2008. Short of disaster (and I came uncomfortably close this past couple of days), there is no way I will entertain a clean install of XP, updated SP2 or no. It works fine as is. My setup is just too complex. I'm sure you understand.However, I'm not sure I understand why the O&O defrag on the system partition initially seemed successful. Problems only became apparent on C: following a defrag of the D: partition, yet the COMPLETENAME defragged D: remains fine.I guess you can't win 'em all...LOL!Regards,Mike

Mike, I never wish anyone the troubles you hadBut I can assure you, if you were to purchase a GENUINE SP2 Windows disk you could use the process without issue.you did experience, even for a brief period, the difference in how the system performs so at least you are aware there is a better way.Why it happened the way it did would be a theory on my part at this point.. none the less, I would not use O&O with your present install and if you did wish to try it again you would need to prepare with a new install disk and clean install.I am very glad you were able to restore and I am sincerely sorry you went through that and are missing out on the upgraded performance.

Hi Nick,Been mulling over your thoughts overnight and can't help feeling there may be some flaws in your arguments.There must be an enormous number of users out there who, like me, started out on the XP Home Edition road with the original RTM version, then subsequently updated to SP2 using the download from Microsoft soon after it was released. Again, like me, some may have created a slipstreamed version of Windows XP Home SP2 using their original disk and SP2 download.I can't recall hearing any announcements about a later release of SP2 with recommendations from Microsoft to update, either by overwriting the original or by first uninstalling the original before applying the later version release. If there were problems why did they not take the easier route of providing any necessary updates via the Windows Update route? Surely the preferred logical route would have been to apply any automated update/s for everyone concerned rather than have them fiddle around with their systems in order to become current? And lets not forget that many of these users would not have been computer literate and would just be relying on the automated Windows Update facility to keep up to date.If O&O Software were aware of potential issues with the original software release of XP/SP2, and the possible impact on users worldwide, then why were fixes not provided in their software to cover these issues? After all, it would have been down to them to provide solutions rather than expect to persuade Microsoft to comply with O&O Defrag's requirements.Something about all this just doesn't sound right. If what you are proposing is indeed the explanation for my recent problems with O&O then why are more users not being affected in this way? Okay, many will have switched to Vista and such potential problems will remain academic. Equally, it's certainly possible that the remaining significant numbers still on XP continue to rely on Windows built in Disk Defragmenter and so will never come across such issues.The other possible explanation is that the majority of XP users install everything on one large partition simply because it's the most straightforward approach. I prefer to keep the o/s on a small partition away from the rest of my installed sofware base and this despite the advice from experts that performance-wise it's not the best way to go. Perhaps this is the 'problem'. If that's the case then stubborn ol' me will continue to resist any attempts to change my ways (MG of FS-GS tried his best back on 04..lol!). My current configuration has served me well for many years with very few problems of a serious nature, and certainly none related to my dual partition setup. It makes routine housekeeping so much easier and, as recent experience has demonstrated, restoring a small active partition gets you back up and running very quickly.Just a few thoughts. What do you think, Nick?Regards,Mike

MikeI do believe O&O was aware of the issue and also issued warnings many years ago that the (version number I can not remember) software was only safe for use with SP2. Most users can upgrade using the SP2 patch and never have a problem. As a matter of fact, the majority can. Those who can not,.. it was never posted by O&O what the issue was specifically or if it could be resolved. They ignored it because not everyone was seeing the problem. It's not as wide-spread as you may think (except for Dell SP1/a disk users) and the solution is to use modern media to install.There is no argument.. that is what happened and that is the solution.I only post the warnings and tell people not to use O&O under certain criteria becuase it is ther LAST thing I would ever want someone to go through especially if they are not properly backed up and can restore, so I operate on the side of caution and post the warnings I do, Please dont assume because I said not to do it that means it will cause the same problem for most users, it wont, except for Dell SP1a/SP2 update and that one is totally confirmed.and I completely agree your choice in partition layout is not with the performance program but I do not see it as an O&O issue. That software is used in many corporate systems and if it was dangerous it would not be used, nor would it have a Microsoft GOLD Partner cert

Let me add one other thing Mike

Hi Nick,This has been a fascinating few days, I must say.I wonder if I could ask you to comment on the following images, keeping in mind that:a) Following recovery, the C: partition has been freshly defragmented using PerfectDisk 2008.:( Analysis of the intact D: partition using PerfectDisk 2008 and the data on this partition remains in the state following COMPLETENAME defrags using O&O 8.5 as per your directions.My Computerhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/185988.jpgFreshly Defragged C: (PerfectDisk)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/185989.jpgFreshly Defragged C: (STATS - PerfectDisk)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/185990.jpgAnalysis of D: (PerfectDisk)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/185991.jpgAnalysis of D: (STATS - PerfectDisk)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/185992.jpgRegards,Mike

>I have had the same disk errors (not like yours) where O&O forced a complete non-bootable Windows issue.I had a, ehem, "problem" last week after interrupting O&O 8.5 and rebooting... Windows started complaining about "some" files that were MIA... I thought it was some "fluke", because these were some serious system files it was referring to. I rebooted and voil

>I had a, ehem, "problem" last week after interrupting O&O 8.5 and rebootingYou interrupted the defrag? How did you interrupt it.. by stopping it in the GUI or some type of abrupt stop?>OEM x64 XP disk and SP2 from WUOK, got that ... SP2 on X64 from WU was known for NOT upgrading the HAL and requires a full slipstream install and fresh install of that media to properly upgrade x64 to SP2. A repair install or other will not work.. it must be a complete wipe and installBeen there, done that... it also has issues with some Nvidia adapters where some were not able to install Nvidia drivers after a WEB BASE SP2 x64 update... same reason, the HAL was not being upgraded and those who had the problem with Nvidia had to revert to x64 SP1http://forums.nvidia.com/lofiversion/index.php?t30879.htmlSlipstream using the network 'full' version of SP2x64 and clean install was the fixThere were a number of other issues related to the same web based upgrade that were also fixed with the clean install on a slipstreamed diskFor many the only way you get full and true SP2 x64 support is with a correctly slipstreamed SP2 x64 disk and a clean install.So you see guys.. this SP2 thing does not only affect O&O.. Many people are not even aware their systems are not upgrading properly unless one of these issues comes along to tell you... and then either O&O or nvidia gets the blame instead of MS for NOT making sure ALL issues were resolved.Which is why I am sure O&O, Nvidia and other software makers who ended up taking the heat did NOTHING about this.. it is in fact an MS issue and they way the update does not take properly on all systems, all the way to the bank.Unless SP2 (current versions) is slipstreamed into the clean install of Windows, some simply do not have the full SP2 support and many dont even know it.:)

Not sure what you would like me to comment on MikeI don

Hi Nick,"I don

>>Nick, I want to say thanks too for the time and effort you put>into your posts, as I follow them with a keen eye. :-)>>>Rob O.>thanks... just trying to help :)Sorry you had the problem you did. If you ever clean install with a Sp2 slipstreamed disk using the full -network- version of SP2 x64, give it another try.You will like the results.

1. The reason you are not seeing any performance increase, or very limited if it is there, is because the OS and boot is not optimized by my list, and, if that partition is on the same drive as the OS and is in fact forcing the head to SEEK across the OS to get to the data, to tell you the truth, I really do not see much of any performance gain you may get from my list... some but not like others who either use 2 drives without partitions or leave it all on one drive with no partitions2. It should remain in that order fairly well being away from the dynamic windows OS partition however over time and if you add or subtract things it will fragment3. PD will probably reorganize the entire file layout4. I answered the person back about PD and its modification methods.. its not about the modified marker, or, if disable last access is no longer used by PD as it was in the past,.. its about how the files are laid out and regardless, if you are seeking across the platter to get to those files, I see a very limited positive result in having that head travel that far and gain anything out of it.5. Modified.. what does that mean? So if a file in FSX that should be called up first (or last) ends up at the beginning (or the end) of the data core because it was made and/or modified 1-2-3 years ago, that should decide the best placement?Does not compute, especially for a huge file access monster like FSX.Files in FS9/FSX are needed to be called like this because of their alphanumerical layout with reference to how the sim calls them:XXXXXXXXXXX---------XXX----------------XXXXXX-------XXXXXXXXXXXXXnot like this:X-----------------------------------------XX-----------------------------------------------------------X----------------------------------------------XXXX-------------------------------------------X------------------------------------------------------------X--------------------------------X---------------------------------------------------------------------X--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X----------------------------X---------------------------I hope that may make it clearer MikeYou were given good advice a long time ago from another professional. Although his methods and mine may differ on that aspect of your system I totally agree.. basic geometry and drive layout is whats killing you the most.If anything your storage should be on D and the sim on the 2nd drive assuming it does have decent perfomance specs, is SATAII or better and is not on a IDE port. Then your going backwards on the specs which geometry cannot overcome..It's a matter of correct stratigic layout based on expereince and knowing how computers and MSFS works.I hope that may make it clearer MikeYou were given good advice a long time ago from another professional. Although his methods and mine may differ, on that aspect of your system I totally agree as would any good professional that knows what they are doing.. basic geometry, file and drive layout for correct and optimal retrieval is what

From what I see O&O is not just a straight forward program. Seems as if only the experts that know what their doing can use this program. Does it not just work as is without a bunch of does an don;t's before you can even use it. I know of a guy that just screwed up his computer using this and following instructions. Once again...............is it safe to use without putting a guy's computer at risk of going into failure?????Tim Diamond:-hmmm

FWIW, I installed 8.5 and started using it several months ago with absolutely no problems on my overclocked system or my RAID drives.Set my system up as NickN suggested, did the defrags and have been a happy camper for quite a while.There are too many variables to blame O&O for "damaging" a system but I guarantee that if you improperly abort ANY defragger you are asking for trouble.Be patient, be careful and back up your system before doing any type of degfragging and you should be OK.Computers are computers and things can happen just by turning them on.VicQ6600 G0 CPU 2.4 o/c 3.65Evga 680i A1 with P31 BIOS 2G XP2-8500 DDR2 1066FSB Mushkin 996535 RAM 5-5-4-12-2T320G 7200 HD partitioned for XP/Vista/Programs 2 - 74G Raptors in RAID0 500G 7200 HD for backup SATA DVD burner Evga 8800GTS 640 PCIx 169.13 betaKandalf LCS case w/ built in liquid cooling 850W Thermaltake power supplyVisit the Virtual Pilot's Centerwww.flightadventures.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-supporter-sigbanner.jpg